I've been practising a lot of tsumego but missed this kill in a game. Wondering if I should be able to solve it (meaning I should learn to recognize tsumego in live games) or if it's above my rank?
Black to kill:
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| What rank is this tsumego? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=18676 |
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| Author: | Cyan [ Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | What rank is this tsumego? |
I've been practising a lot of tsumego but missed this kill in a game. Wondering if I should be able to solve it (meaning I should learn to recognize tsumego in live games) or if it's above my rank? Black to kill:
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| Author: | kvasir [ Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
Maybe it is a hard one? I tend to divide tsumego into categories depending on if it is a "learning" problem or a "reading" problem. "Learning" problem is something you study, possibly memorize and try to learn something new. "Reading" problem is one that practices reading, because it is tricky or the solution is unexpected. My approach with "reading" problems is to never look at the solution, I'll try but I won't check if it is correct because I don't see that as the point of the exercise. Also if I am not sure I have the solution this is also a practical answer. As you improve some "reading" problems might change categories and become something to study. If I am not missing something then I'd call this a "reading" problem and wouldn't try to memorize it. I said I wouldn't look at the solution but that doesn't mean I wouldn't talk about it with anyone  Are you sure black can kill? |
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| Author: | Cyan [ Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
Seems like this is a hard reading problem, plus the time pressure and the whole board position in a live game makes it even harder. I think black can kill in this way, is this correct? |
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| Author: | kvasir [ Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
Yeah. That seems to check out. |
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| Author: | Cyan [ Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
Thanks, I want to put this problem on a tsumego site, but I have no experience in making tsumego. How should I simplify this position into a tsumego? |
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| Author: | Cassandra [ Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
Cyan wrote: I've been practising a lot of tsumego but missed this kill in a game. Wondering if I should be able to solve it (meaning I should learn to recognize tsumego in live games) or if it's above my rank? It will make a decisive difference if you encounter this problem presented as a tsume-go, or in a real game. If it is a tsume-go, you will be sure that there is a way for Black to kill White's group. In my experience, this knowledge alone makes it easier in many cases to find the solution. In a real game, there will still exist some kind of uncertainty, if you did not encounter the key-shapes and key-tesuji of this formation (probably often enough) before. Thus said, this problem might have been above your rank in a real game, and below (or suitable for) your rank as a genuine tsume-go. |
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| Author: | Cassandra [ Thu Apr 07, 2022 12:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
Cyan wrote: Thanks, I want to put this problem on a tsumego site, but I have no experience in making tsumego. How should I simplify this position into a tsumego? This positiion is fine as a tsume-go, there is NO need for simplification. But it would be necessary to identify the key points of shape, as well as some other relevant properties of the stones / strings involved. Tomorrow at the latest, I will post here an example of my thinking in this regard. Now it is very late in the evening and I still have to walk my two dogs (one of them is called HONTE  ).
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| Author: | Cyan [ Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
I added this tsumego to 101weiqi, please take a look and give it a rating! https://www.101weiqi.com/auditquestion/318584/ |
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
I'm 2d. In a game I would surely go for the kill with  as in the solution but I would probably screw up at  because I'd try to falsify the upper eye next, giving White an opportunity to force life at the bottom.In my practice blog here you will see my latest post featuring a fairly easy tesuji problem which however wasn't trivial for me in the real game. As someone else pointed out, knowing there *is* something, is probably worth a couple of ranks already. |
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| Author: | weakwest [ Thu Apr 07, 2022 9:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
It's really easy. At most like a 5k 101weiqi problem? No offense but the posters finding it difficult probably have poor life and death skills |
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| Author: | Cassandra [ Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
The space is very open, so the shape analysis is not that trivial. If it was White's turn ... White's group has two sure eyes. A nakade shape inside White's formation. Two cutting points. Two White strings with only three liberties. This makes one think about another nakade shape. White's string at the right has four liberties. But which a Black stone at the shadowed point would have, too. A potential false eye at the top. is played at the apparent vital point of the problem.Trial continuation at the right. White got only one eye at the bottom. At the top, there is still the potential false eye. But  makes miai of A and B.Therefore, Black must pre-empt White's life-creating move by playing a diagonal move to himself.White is dead. |
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| Author: | Gérard TAILLE [ Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
Knotwilg wrote: I'm 2d. In a game I would surely go for the kill with as in the solution but I would probably screw up at because I'd try to falsify the upper eye next, giving White an opportunity to force life at the bottom.I do not see where you can play a wrong move: The logical sequence seems the following and with your suggestion to falsify the upper eye the move  kills white doesn't it?BTW in the following position the moves a, b, c or d seem killing moves but in practice the move "a" is certainly the best one for a yose point of view. |
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
[quote="Gérard TAILLE"][/quote] See previous answers. Your 4 is thé wrong hane. Then a diagonal decent nu white threatens to connect or make a 2nd eye |
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| Author: | Cassandra [ Sat Apr 09, 2022 8:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
Gérard TAILLE wrote: Knotwilg wrote: I'm 2d. In a game I would surely go for the kill with as in the solution but I would probably screw up at because I'd try to falsify the upper eye next, giving White an opportunity to force life at the bottom.I do not see where you can play a wrong move: The logical sequence seems the following and with your suggestion to falsify the upper eye the move kills white doesn't it?Knotwilg was faster   must be played from the inside, NOT from the outside.
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| Author: | Gérard TAILLE [ Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
Cassandra wrote: Gérard TAILLE wrote: Knotwilg wrote: I'm 2d. In a game I would surely go for the kill with as in the solution but I would probably screw up at because I'd try to falsify the upper eye next, giving White an opportunity to force life at the bottom.I do not see where you can play a wrong move: The logical sequence seems the following and with your suggestion to falsify the upper eye the move kills white doesn't it?Knotwilg was faster must be played from the inside, NOT from the outside.When white plays hane on the outside white threatens to make an eye at "a" and the answer  is natural.OC, similarly, when white plays hane on the inside white threatens to make an eye at "b" and the answer is still natural.BTW, instead of it may be better for black to answer at "c".I still do not see how white can live. |
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| Author: | Cyan [ Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
Knotwilg wrote: Gérard TAILLE wrote: See previous answers. Your 4 is thé wrong hane. Then a diagonal decent nu white threatens to connect or make a 2nd eye Even with 4 at kosumi white dies.  I've submitted 8 variations of solutions in this link, hope it answers everyone's questions about how black can kill. https://www.101weiqi.com/auditquestion/318584/ |
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| Author: | CDavis7M [ Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
I've started to realize something doing tsumego, especially ones from real games. There's the rank at which someone can solve the tsumego problem itself. Then there's the rank at which someone would recognize the situation in game and play corrected, which is about 3 ranks higher than solving. And then there's the rank at which someone would have played moves to setup the tsumego. Which is what? 6 ranks higher than solving? Of course, ranks are relative so this is just for illustration. And then there's the rank at which the player reads several variations of which the tsumego and many others are options and they play moves to only incidentally setup the tsumego as a threat but of course neither they nor their opponent will ever let the game to that position. Of course, in most games you just try something out and stumble into a position. It would be nice if the Go-Fairy could just whisper whether seki or ko count as a correct answer. |
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| Author: | Gérard TAILLE [ Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
CDavis7M wrote: I've started to realize something doing tsumego, especially ones from real games. There's the rank at which someone can solve the tsumego problem itself. Then there's the rank at which someone would recognize the situation in game and play corrected, which is about 3 ranks higher than solving. And then there's the rank at which someone would have played moves to setup the tsumego. Which is what? 6 ranks higher than solving? Of course, ranks are relative so this is just for illustration. And then there's the rank at which the player reads several variations of which the tsumego and many others are options and they play moves to only incidentally setup the tsumego as a threat but of course neither they nor their opponent will ever let the game to that position. Of course, in most games you just try something out and stumble into a position. It would be nice if the Go-Fairy could just whisper whether seki or ko count as a correct answer. I agree with you, depending of your rank, you will have a different appreciation of a move. Surely the move above is the only move to kill white stones and as such is a good move.What about the answer  ? For a strong player no doubt it is a very bad move. First of all white loses a ko threat and secondly when black answers with "a" white suffers locally a great loss. Each time white adds a move this move is probably a bad move isn't it?
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| Author: | Elom0 [ Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
Gérard TAILLE wrote: CDavis7M wrote: I've started to realize something doing tsumego, especially ones from real games. There's the rank at which someone can solve the tsumego problem itself. Then there's the rank at which someone would recognize the situation in game and play corrected, which is about 3 ranks higher than solving. And then there's the rank at which someone would have played moves to setup the tsumego. Which is what? 6 ranks higher than solving? Of course, ranks are relative so this is just for illustration. And then there's the rank at which the player reads several variations of which the tsumego and many others are options and they play moves to only incidentally setup the tsumego as a threat but of course neither they nor their opponent will ever let the game to that position. Of course, in most games you just try something out and stumble into a position. It would be nice if the Go-Fairy could just whisper whether seki or ko count as a correct answer. I agree with you, depending of your rank, you will have a different appreciation of a move. Surely the move above is the only move to kill white stones and as such is a good move.What about the answer ? For a strong player no doubt it is a very bad move. First of all white loses a ko threat and secondly when black answers with "a" white suffers locally a great loss. Each time white adds a move this move is probably a bad move isn't it?Also, what happens if white plays the knights move? |
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| Author: | Gérard TAILLE [ Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: What rank is this tsumego? |
Elom0 wrote: What is your idea? If white is unconditionnaly dead then this exchange is in practice very bad for white.
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