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Guess KataGo's next move
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=18992		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  dfan [ Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Guess KataGo's next move
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This position is from a game I played on Fox against another 3d. I was Black and played K16. KataGo's second favorite move is the similar move L17 but its top choice is something I did not expect at all. Can you guess it?
Author:  Harleqin [ Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
I think I would try to reinforce the right side. Maybe even yonrensei, but R14 or R6 look good too. B17 is big too, but I think it's not the time right now.
Author:  Knotwilg [ Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . c . O . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . B . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Corners then sides then center.

Given the marked stone and Katago's preference for making existing stones efficient, I hypothesize :b1:
Without the expectation created, I would play in the upper right.
But since the OP suggests that the move is totally unexpected, I'm thinking of Katago's other preference, sente (which is also about efficiency) and reverse sente. And so I can imagine a move like "c".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | 8 2 4 , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | 6 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 7 . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 0 W , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . B . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


:w2: is sente - if :b5: then White kills
Author:  Kirby [ Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
C9 seems like something unexpected, but I can't read a good follow up.
Author:  kvasir [ Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
Cut—think later!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 7 X 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 8 . X O 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Not sure if trying to make a funny variation or not, still it strikes me that black would like to cut if white can't kill the inside or capture the cutting stones.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$m11 random funny moves
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 3 , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . X O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Author:  jussius [ Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
Things I might consider:
- Random move in the center, let's say J9. This is probably not unexpected enough to be the answer, and also it would be very hard to guess the exact correct spot.
- Peeping at D9. if white just connects I can't see how it can be a bad exchange. Maybe white can try to punish by blocking B10, forcing black to slide into the corner and getting sente.
- Just sliding to B17 and not give a damn about the outside. But if you think this is good enough, you might as well peep D9 first since the only way for white to "punish" was to force black to slide.
Cut D11. Looks very overplayish but what do I know. It doesn't look like black can get captured and around such white strength maybe just fighting and living somehow is good enough for black. I've definitely seen KataGo play crazier looking cuts.

So I guess the answer is most likely D9 or D11. D11 is definitely more unexpected, but I'll answer D9 since it's so much more likely to be actually good.
Author:  dfan [ Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
jussius got it!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In retrospect I can be convinced that this is a good exchange, but wow, that is not a move that would ever be on my candidate list. (KataGo thinks the game is pretty even, by the way.)
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
Quote:
In retrospect I can be convinced that this is a good exchange, but wow, that is not a move that would ever be on my candidate list.


But haven't you thought the same sort of thing about many human pro moves? And in those cases, didn't you get a human explanation?
Author:  dfan [ Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
John Fairbairn wrote:
But haven't you thought the same sort of thing about many human pro moves?
Yes.

Quote:
And in those cases, didn't you get a human explanation?
Sometimes.
Author:  jlt [ Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
It's still not clear to me why D9 is sente.
Author:  Knotwilg [ Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 W , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 5 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


White's thickness is broken.
Author:  dhu163 [ Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
D11 doesn't really work, because after atari, it is nearly in a net. At least certainly not without making a crude exchange of D15 for E15.

D9 is clever.
Tenuki for the B groups is fine as B16 can be met by B15 after which W has some cutting points at C16 which become exposed if W wants to force with B10, so it likely becomes gote. In the worst case, B can add a move at A14 without losing too much. And the lower left B group is safely alive, so B10 isn't particularly big either to threaten it.

However if B eventually must connect at A10, then W has B9, B8 in sente, which happen as soon as W plays B16 pretty much. Given that, W B16 is the best local move, much bigger than B10, we expect it for evaluation. In that case D9 for C9 is an excellent exchange.

W does owe a move to defend the cuts as it is in the middle of W's big potential (with potential to destroy both above and below), it concerns B's C15 group, as well as the D15 cut and D5 also. With K4, the lower left W wall isn't alive and doesn't even have room to make much of a base.

Finally, if W tries to resist with B10, then B is content to play the big move at B17 to live. W B2 remains not sente because B can crawl B8 in sente. Most importantly, later, B can play something like E5 with more power because there are more undefended cuts at C9 and D11. Even just jumping out around G9 may become interesting. Or sometimes even D5 directly (though locally net now).

__

As far as I can tell, the main question mark is if W can play B16 (fighting spirit). If B can only block B15, it seems like a good exchange, though W could get that anyway. However, if B can play C9, then perhaps W B16 simply doesn't work. It looks tricky though.

In this case fighting spirit means not getting forced into bad shape when you have a weak point (C9) that might be defendable by leaning on your opponent's weak point (the group not 100% alive), perhaps before taking gote to defend. It can go wrong if your weak point is bigger or faster (less moves to activate) than your opponent's. This judgement is tricky.

This is another alternative variation I am thinking about. Evaluation isn't easy.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Author:  Kirby [ Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
dfan wrote:
jussius got it!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In retrospect I can be convinced that this is a good exchange, but wow, that is not a move that would ever be on my candidate list. (KataGo thinks the game is pretty even, by the way.)


Why do you think it's a good exchange? White's stones seem more solid to me, now.

I mean, I get it. The AI said it's the right move. But why?

FWIW, I haven't played go for a few weeks, so my intuition may be off.
Author:  dfan [ Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
Well, you're stronger than me, so I shouldn't be telling you anything! Also I was careful to say "I could be convinced that this is a good exchange", not "I think this is a good exchange". :)

But anyway, the reason I could be convinced is that it seems faintly possible that :b1: could become useful at some point (helping with a cut or erasure), while :w2: doesn't seem to do anything for White; White was already super strong and I didn't think it helps against either Black group.

dhu163 had some more concrete analysis later on this thread.
Author:  pwaldron [ Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
Kirby wrote:
Why do you think it's a good exchange? White's stones seem more solid to me, now.

I mean, I get it. The AI said it's the right move. But why?


Nicely highlighting John's comments from a while back about a human pro being able to explain rather than just giving an answer.

More seriously, to me this looks similar to a standard peep against a tiger's mouth shape--it's good technique that doesn't lose anything for Black and puts a stone down in a place that might be useful in one game out of a hundred. The other 99 games it doesn't matter one way or the other.
Author:  dhu163 [ Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
Its not obvious to me that it is a good exchange, though I mostly believe it. It seems quite unique to peeping from the 3rd line to the 2nd in this sort of joseki.

The main situation when it loses something is if B plays 2 moves at say B10 and B9. (or B10 and B8). This is unlikely as both groups are alive and they could connect in 1 move for basically the same number of points with A10 or A8 monkey jump. The loss isn't small, but this situation seems to be very unlikely. The other situation is if B gets B10, and then the D11 cut is more severe. This is more likely but still not very likely and D9 can still help support a D11 cut.

However the situation where it can gain something is very probable even if the gain isn't big. It only requires W to play one big move in the upper left which W expects to play in semi sente. It peeps at a tiger mouth and gets a connected dumpling in response.
Author:  Gérard TAILLE [ Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
The exchange :b1: :w2: may be good for black for a fight in the center but it is not a good exchange for a fight in in bottom of the board due to the possiblity to play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
and black must defend her left side.

On contrary after the exchange
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

then the sequence
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
is no more sente

My feeling is that black should wait a little for the good timing of the peep.
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
Bill Spight used to make much of his observation that bots play forcing moves sooner rather than later, unlike many human pros.

Is it possible that bots do this not because it’s good timing but simply because it prunes the tree search in some way, and that allows them to search deeper?
Author:  Kirby [ Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
One thing that I have found in reviews of my own games is that I tend to peep too often. Sometimes, AI that I review with also thinks it's a bad move. I seem to almost have a habit: Oh, tiger's mouth - let's peep it; can't be bad. The shape seems to get heavier, and I get to play a free move.

But I have been trying to change this habit, because sometimes that peep does turn out to be bad. So I want to make sure there is clear benefit when making a peep like that.

Here, it's a little harder for me to see the black benefit. But AI is notorious for understanding the center better than humans.

I still don't think I'd come up with this move in a real game. I suppose that's what makes it interesting here.
Author:  Mike Novack [ Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Guess KataGo's next move
Kirby wrote:

Here, it's a little harder for me to see the black benefit. But AI is notorious for understanding the center better than humans.

I still don't think I'd come up with this move in a real game. I suppose that's what makes it interesting here.


But we aren't so much being asked to imagine the move as to recognize what might be good about it after having seen it.

And perhaps not so much AI being better at understanding the center as in understanding the whole board. Because I think whole board is how we should look at it.

In other words, after move 3, the biggest area for white to play has to be to break up the right side. But now has to do that WITHOUT making it possible for black 1 to escape (or stones placed near black 1 to escape). Because if that happens, that wonderful outfacing I am no where strong enough solid wall might not turn out to be worth as much. I am not even close to being strong enough to work out any details, just to see that the move is interesting in the whole board sense.
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