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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #21 Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 9:51 am 
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[quote="RobertJasiek"]In the simplest case of a high temperature, the creator chooses the gote option or tenukis so we might ignore the sente move value. In that case, all we need of the sente option is (an approximation of) the follow-up move value to verify that indeed the temperature is high. Determining this and (an approximation of) one initial move value (the one of the gote option) should be possible within 5 minutes.[quote]

Here I recognise some similariry with the way I calculate but I am not sure to understand what you mean exactly.
You mentionned a "high temperature". This temperature is related to what? The local position or the environment?

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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #22 Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 10:40 am 
Judan

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Unless I explicitly say otherwise, I always mean the environment's ambient temperature.

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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #23 Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 11:28 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
In the simplest case of a high temperature, the creator chooses the gote option or tenukis so we might ignore the sente move value. In that case, all we need of the sente option is (an approximation of) the follow-up move value to verify that indeed the temperature is high. Determining this and (an approximation of) one initial move value (the one of the gote option) should be possible within 5 minutes.
Quote:
each player has developped her own evaluation method

OK Robert. Let's assume the ambiant temperature is high. If you decide to play in the local position that means that the value of a move in this local position is also high and more or less equal to the ambiant temperature right? In that case, is it a good understanding that you prefer the gote move (=> in that case the value of this gote move is about equal to the ambiant temprature) and you simply ignore the sente move? If not what do you mean exactly in your post? My view is that I have to compare the sente value to half the value of the gote move but you seem to introduce a new idea I have never heard before.

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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #24 Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 11:42 am 
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I'll try to use these pages from senseis: https://senseis.xmp.net/?MiaiCounting and https://senseis.xmp.net/?MiaiCountingWithTrees

I put positions A, B and C in a tree, taking left branches as black moves and right branches as white moves (but I collapse some sequences).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W A
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . X O . |
$$ . . X , . X . X X X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W B: count = 2
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . T T 6 2 5 S S . |
$$ . . . . . T T 4 3 1 O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . X O . |
$$ . . X , . X . X X X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W C: count = -5
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . 6 5 7 S S S S . |
$$ . . . . . 0 4 3 9 1 O S . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O 8 X O . |
$$ . . X , . X . X X X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Code:
     A
    / \
   B   C

Filling in counts:
Code:
     A
    / \
   2  -5

Backtracking counts and calculating the temperature (between parentheses) of position A:
Code:
   -1.5 (3.5)
    / \
   2  -5

What I further understand from those pages:

If the ambient temperature < 3.5, black should respond locally like B (or an equivalent move) with count 2.
In that case we need to prune C from the move tree, so we get:
Code:
     2 ()
    /
   2

However, if the ambient temperature > 3.5, black should play a bigger move elsewhere, allowing white to move to C with count -5.
I also think the ambient temperature should not be too high (like >= 4.5), otherwise white should not even be playing in this area to begin with.

An alternative for position A is position D:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W D: count = 2
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . X O . |
$$ . . X , . X . X X X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

So it seems to me that D is equivalent to A when the ambient temperature <= 3.5.

But if 3.5 < ambient temperature < 4.5, is A better for white than D (because A would then have count -1.5)?

Edit: Changed 'miai count' to just 'count' after Robert Jasiek's remark about terminology below.


Last edited by gennan on Sun Apr 07, 2024 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #25 Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 12:42 pm 
Judan

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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Let's assume the ambiant temperature is high. If you decide to play in the local position that means that the value of a move in this local position is also high and more or less equal to the ambiant temperature right?


Since you do not know my theory, why have you praised it?;)

In the case of a high temperature T, compare it to the gote move value Mgote to decide whether to play locally the gote option!

T ? Mgote

Simple, isn't it?:) The proof has been quite an ordeal though...! I have needed to exclude the sente option.

Quote:
My view is that I have to compare the sente value to half the value of the gote move but you seem to introduce a new idea I have never heard before


You can profit from my theorem that only the gote option matters! (If the temperature is high.)

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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #26 Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 1:06 pm 
Judan

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gennan, those webpages are for ordinary local endgames - they are not for local endgames with gote and sente options!!! The latter have a player's two alternative moves from a position to either the gote follower or the sente follower. Such as

Code:
        A
      / /\
     / /  \
    G  S   R


There is no such thing as a miai count. Modern endgame theory aka miai counting is the field of studying (per-move) move values aka miai values, counts and gains.

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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #27 Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 1:22 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
There is no such thing as a miai count.

Thanks, I changed 'miai count' to count' in my previous post.

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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #28 Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 2:18 pm 
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So can we say that this position has count 2, because white has a sente sequence to reach that count and 'sente gains nothing'?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ F: count 2
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . X O . |
$$ . . X , . X . X X X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I try to calculate the miai value of black's reverse sente move:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B G
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . 1 O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . X O . |
$$ . . X , . X . X X X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B H: count 16
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . T T T T T . 7 . |
$$ . . . . . T T T T 1 Q 5 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . X Q 3 X O . |
$$ . . X , . X . X X X 2 O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B J: count 9
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . T T T T . . S . |
$$ . . . . . T T T T 1 O 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X Q 3 X O . |
$$ . . X , . X . X X X 2 O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Code:
           F
          / \     
         G   D
        / \
       H   J

Code:
           2
          / \     
  (3.5) 12.5 2
        / \
      16   9


Would this mean that black's reverse sente move (G) has miai value 10.5, so white should play his sente before the temperature drops to near 10.5?

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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #29 Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 2:28 pm 
Judan

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Quote:
So can we say that this position has count 2, because white has a sente sequence [...]

Go Diagram
F: count 2
Click Here To Hide Diagram Code
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ F: count 2
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . X O . |
$$ . . X , . X . X X X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


What sente sequence?

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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #30 Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 2:41 pm 
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I mean the large monkey jump (D in my post from about 3 hours ago).

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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #31 Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 3:05 pm 
Judan

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Suppose the would-be sente option is such.

The local endgame has a gote option and a sente option. The gote option provides a tentative gote count of the local endgame. The sente option provides a tentative sente count of the local endgame. Similarly, tentative move values.

Such tentative values can be compared to characterise the local endgame as - typically behaving as - a local gote or sente. If it is characterised as a local gote, the tentative gote count is the count. If it is characterised as s local sente, the tentative sente count is the count.

Nevertheless, a local endgame with gote and sente options characterised as either local gote or local sente can exceptionally have the atypical behaviour in some global contexts.

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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #32 Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2024 11:52 pm 
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If I made no mistakes in post #28, I'll try to fix the mistakes my post #24 along the same lines.

As C is a sente follow-up of A for white, and sente gains nothing, A would have the same count as C: count = -5. I suppose that would be the gote count of A.
And B (with count 2) would be a reverse sente continuation for black with miai value 7.

So this partial tree ...
Code:
     A
    / \
   B   C

... whould have these counts:
Code:
    -5
    / \
   2  -5

I think I can also tentatively replace D in the tree from post #28 with this partial tree from A.
So then I get:
Code:
           __ F __
          /       \     
         G         A
        / \       / \
       H   J     B   C

Would root position F then keep its count of 2 from post #24, or would it get count 3.75 with local temperature 8.75?
Code:
  (8.75?) _ 3.75? _
         /         \     
(3.5) 12.5         -5
       / \         / \
     16   9       2  -5

Either way, I think white chosing A with count -5 will lead black to chose B with count 2 if the ambient temperature is < 7, because black's reverse sente has miai value 7.

Comparing F's count of 3.75 here with the count of 2 in post #24, does it mean that (given we have reached F and white will play a move there) I can assume that the ambient temperature is already < 10.5, otherwise black would have chosen G already or white would have chosen D already to prevent black from reaching G?

When we have F with white to play, is there an ambient temperature range where chosing A is better for white than chosing D? Could it be the case for ambient temperatures > 7?

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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #33 Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 2:01 am 
Judan

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Your post #28:

gennan wrote:
So can we say that this position has count 2, because white has a sente sequence to reach that count


Suppose the monkey is sente indeed.

So far we can say that the initial position F has the tentative sente count 2. Whether this is the count of F we still need to determine by characterising F as a local gote, local sente or ambiguous.

Quote:
and 'sente gains nothing'?


Informally.

Quote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B H: count 16
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . T T T T T . 7 . |
$$ . . . . . T T T T 1 Q 5 6 |
$$ . . . . . . . X Q 3 X O . |
$$ . . X , . X . X X X 2 O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]



White 2 might or might not be correct. Omitting it has the advantage of the supposed follow-up White 5 being more valuable. Further analysis is needed to study both variations.

After Black 1, White 2 - Black 3 is a sente option while White 5 is a a gote option (not an alternative sente option: P18 - P19). Our master complicator Gerard Taille has woven (so far detected at least) three sente versus gote option choices in the problem position to better prove his point that value calculations are too complicated;) Or accidentally?

2 EDITs

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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #34 Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2024 2:27 am 
Judan

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gennan wrote:
As C is a sente follow-up of A

Code:
     A
    / \
   B   C



Please do not write sente trees as gote trees! Too confusing!

Quote:
white chosing A with count -5 will lead black to chose B with count 2 if the ambient temperature is < 7, because black's reverse sente has miai value 7.


From A, either player might continue and has his conditions for doing so.

Quote:
assume that the ambient temperature is already < 10.5, otherwise black would have chosen G already or white would have chosen D already to prevent black from reaching G?


Wishful thinking that things would be simple.

Quote:
When we have F with white to play, is there an ambient temperature range where chosing A is better for white than chosing D?


What D? B? If B, yes. At low temperature, there are both options with choice depending on value conditions. (And Black to move has a more complicated choice. During the late endgame, I could construct an extremely rare example in which the following three lines are all correct due to a totally unrealistic 19.5 value drop in the environment: 1) reverse sente, 2) elsewhere and opponent chooses gote option, 3) elsewhere and opponent chooses sente option.)


1 EDIT

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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #35 Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 1:26 am 
Judan

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W original problem
$$ ----------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . X O . |
$$ . . X , . X . X X X . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W simplified problem
$$ ----------------------------
$$ X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ X . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ X . O O . . . X O . X O . |
$$ X . O O . . . X X X X O O |
$$ X . O O . . . X O O O O . |
$$ X X X X X X X X O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . . . |[/go]


We simplify all the time, e.g., we approximate by assuming an ideal environment. If an early endgame calculation problem is too difficult to solve using either a) exact local value calculations or b) the method of global reading and counting, we can

solve it by simplifying the problem itself!

We can make further simplifying assumptions as follows. We use a locale.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W locale
$$ ----------------------------
$$ X . . . . C C C C C C C C |
$$ X . . . . C C C C C W C C |
$$ X . O O . . . X W C X O C |
$$ X . O O . . . X X X X O O |
$$ X . O O . . . X O O O O . |
$$ X X X X X X X X O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . . . |[/go]


Suppose certain long alternating sequences, including certain sente sequences, are worth playing successively.

Assume that this is Black's correct local move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B assumed correct local move
$$ ----------------------------
$$ X . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ X . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ X . O O . . . X O . X O . |
$$ X . O O . . . X X X X O O |
$$ X . O O . . . X O O O O . |
$$ X X X X X X X X O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . . . . |[/go]


Now, start afresh!


EDIT: further simplified the position.

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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #36 Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 2:46 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Let's assume the ambiant temperature is high. If you decide to play in the local position that means that the value of a move in this local position is also high and more or less equal to the ambiant temperature right?


Since you do not know my theory, why have you praised it?;)


I simply assumed the quality of your theory is quite similar to Bill's one and I find this last theory quite valuable.

RobertJasiek wrote:
In the case of a high temperature T, compare it to the gote move value Mgote to decide whether to play locally the gote option!

T ? Mgote

Simple, isn't it?:) The proof has been quite an ordeal though...! I have needed to exclude the sente option.

You can profit from my theorem that only the gote option matters! (If the temperature is high.)


Now, seeing this strange theorem I have serious doubt concerning your theory. Assuming it exists locally both a gote option and a sente option I cannot believe that you can ignore the sente option only on condition the temperature is high.

For me either you use another hidden assupmtion on the position or you made a mistake in your proof. I hope it is the first case!

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Post #37 Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 4:36 am 
Judan

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Gérard TAILLE wrote:
I simply assumed the quality of your theory is quite similar to Bill's one and I find this last theory quite valuable.


The quality is on the same level. For non-ko, non-pure-CGT endgame theory, I have written and proved ca. 6 times as many theorems, but a significant part of them would have been impossible without his prior informal, conceptual ideas. We both have studied ko theory. He has provided several times more pure-CGT endgame theory than me. So on the pure theorem count, I win hands down. Overall, our achievements play in the same league.

Quote:
Now, seeing this strange theorem I have serious doubt concerning your theory. Assuming it exists locally both a gote option and a sente option I cannot believe that you can ignore the sente option only on condition the temperature is high.

For me either you use another hidden assupmtion on the position or you made a mistake in your proof. I hope it is the first case!


"We study a local endgame with one player's gote and sente options in an environment of simple gotes without follow-ups. The temperature T is high with F < T, where F is the [sente option's] follow-up move value [...] the tentative gote move value MGOTE [...]

Proposition 132
[early endgame, creator's perspective and start, high temperature]
If F < T, it is a good approximation that the creator starts
- in the environment if T ≥ MGOTE,
- locally with the gote option if T ≤ MGOTE.

[... Proof filling one printing page applying proposition 66, whose proof covers half a page, and theorem 121, whose proof refers corollary 67 and proposition 120 for the late endgame, whose proof covers more than one page ...]

Proposition 133
[early endgame, preventer's perspective and start, high temperature]
If F < T, it is a good approximation that the preventer starts
- in the environment if T ≥ MGOTE,
- locally if T ≤ MGOTE.

Proof [filling almost one and a half printing pages applying proposition 66 and theorem 125 for the late endgame, whose proof also refers to proposition 124, whose proof covers one page...]

Theorem 134 [early endgame, high temperature]
If F < T, it is a good approximation that the starting player starts
- in the environment if T ≥ MGOTE,
- locally if T ≤ MGOTE (the creator chooses the gote option).

Proof
Combine propositions 132 + 133 and their proofs.□" [22]


No surprise you have doubts before reading the proofs;)


Citation of an extract from the proof of proposition 132:

"MSENTE < F is a necessary condition for the sente option itself being a local sente. For the average (MSENTE + F) / 2 of MSENTE and F, we have MSENTE < (MSENTE + F) / 2 < F. We have assumed a high temperature, that is, F < T. The tentative conditions suggest T ≤ (MSENTE + F) / 2 as a necessary condition for starting locally with the sente option. In summary, for starting locally with the sente option, we get the conditions MSENTE < (MSENTE + F) / 2 < F < T ≤ (MSENTE + F) / 2.
Since this is a contradiction to the assumption in the tentative conditions of the existing case 'starting locally with the sente option', it does not exist." [22]


Simply speaking, in conclusion, proved by contradiction to the assumption of a high temperature!

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Post #38 Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 7:16 am 
Judan

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The approximations include
- the assumption of an ideal environment,
- averaging the detail of an even or odd number of values in the environment,
- while the applied late endgame proofs presume single moves instead of longer sequences, which occur in practice in every local endgame with gote and sente options, the assumption is that this detail can be ignored during the early endgame with its still rather dense environment because any local follow-up simply "vanishes" in the environment. Practical experience confirms this but maths needs to take this as an assumption because there are counter-examples for the late endgame so, in principle, pathological counter-examples could be constructed for the early endgame as if it were a rich late endgame.

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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #39 Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 2:48 pm 
Lives in sente

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RobertJasiek wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
I simply assumed the quality of your theory is quite similar to Bill's one and I find this last theory quite valuable.

"We study a local endgame with one player's gote and sente options in an environment of simple gotes without follow-ups. The temperature T is high with F < T, where F is the [sente option's] follow-up move value [...] the tentative gote move value MGOTE [...]

Proposition 132
[early endgame, creator's perspective and start, high temperature]
If F < T, it is a good approximation that the creator starts
- in the environment if T ≥ MGOTE,
- locally with the gote option if T ≤ MGOTE.

[... Proof filling one printing page applying proposition 66, whose proof covers half a page, and theorem 121, whose proof refers corollary 67 and proposition 120 for the late endgame, whose proof covers more than one page ...]

Proposition 133
[early endgame, preventer's perspective and start, high temperature]
If F < T, it is a good approximation that the preventer starts
- in the environment if T ≥ MGOTE,
- locally if T ≤ MGOTE.

Proof [filling almost one and a half printing pages applying proposition 66 and theorem 125 for the late endgame, whose proof also refers to proposition 124, whose proof covers one page...]

Theorem 134 [early endgame, high temperature]
If F < T, it is a good approximation that the starting player starts
- in the environment if T ≥ MGOTE,
- locally if T ≤ MGOTE (the creator chooses the gote option).

Proof
Combine propositions 132 + 133 and their proofs.□" [22]


No surprise you have doubts before reading the proofs;)


Citation of an extract from the proof of proposition 132:

"MSENTE < F is a necessary condition for the sente option itself being a local sente. For the average (MSENTE + F) / 2 of MSENTE and F, we have MSENTE < (MSENTE + F) / 2 < F. We have assumed a high temperature, that is, F < T. The tentative conditions suggest T ≤ (MSENTE + F) / 2 as a necessary condition for starting locally with the sente option. In summary, for starting locally with the sente option, we get the conditions MSENTE < (MSENTE + F) / 2 < F < T ≤ (MSENTE + F) / 2.
Since this is a contradiction to the assumption in the tentative conditions of the existing case 'starting locally with the sente option', it does not exist." [22]


Simply speaking, in conclusion, proved by contradiction to the assumption of a high temperature!


I do not understand Robert.

For me if you assume one player has a gote and a sente options then, if the temperature is T <= MGOTE, it is always a good approximation to play locally and OC, at such temperature, the two options (gote and sente) must exist.
Taking the sente option that means in particular that T < F.

Assuming F < T being in contradiction with the existence of a sente option, if you assume F < T, then you assume there are no sente option.
IOW your theorem can never be applied.

Because I surely missed sommething can you simply give us an exemple of its application?

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 Post subject: Re: Gote move vs sente move in yose
Post #40 Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2024 10:17 pm 
Judan

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Quote:
if the temperature is T <= MGOTE, it is always a good approximation to play locally


This is another good observation. It says, however, nothing about which play is correct: local gote option, local sente option or environment.

Quote:
at such temperature, the two options (gote and sente) must exist.


At any temperature, both options are on the board. For certain temperatures, the question of existence is whether playing in the sente option with the alleged value conditions exists. For this study in the proof, the comparison is F < T, that is, it is not a comparison between T and MGOTE. It is application of the theorem for F < T, when, for deciding between local play in the gote option or the environment, the comparison between T and MGOTE is used.

Quote:
Taking the sente option that means in particular that T < F.


So my theorem suggests.

Quote:
Assuming F < T being in contradiction with the existence of a sente option, if you assume F < T, then you assume there are no sente option.


The argument in the proof is about "non-existence of choosing to play in the sente option having, in particular, its tentative value condition T ≤ (MSENTE + F) / 2". That is, the proof does not dispute the existing sente option on the board but disputes choosing play in the sente option at high temperature.

Quote:
theorem can never be applied


The contradiction is not in the theorem, which applies when F < T, but part of its proof is by contradiction, which uses this assumption in the theorem.

Quote:
can you simply give us an exemple of its application?


For quite a few examples of application, see [14], [22], [23]. If somebody provides the sequences and values for an example (such as the simplified problem), I show its application. Needless to say, 42 is the answer to all questions (after I spent three days to find such examples):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to move
$$ -----------------------------------
$$ | X X X X X . X X X O O X X X X X |
$$ | X X X X X . X . . . O X O O O X |
$$ | X X X X X X X X O O O X O O O X |
$$ | X X X X X X X X O X X X O O O X |
$$ | X X X X X X X O O X X X O O O X |
$$ | . O O O O O O O X X X O O O O X |
$$ | . O X X X X X X X X X O O O O X |
$$ | X . X . . . . . X . X . X X X X |
$$ | O X X X X X X X X . O O O O O O |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------[/go]


In practice, such environments do not occur. In particular, not during the early endgame.

***

BTW, not playing sente prematurely should not surprise you. Here is the theorem for an ordinary local endgame with one player's follow-up during the early endgame at high temperature:

"Theorem 89
[early endgame, starting player's perspective, high temperature, conclusion]
If F < T, it is a good approximation that the starting player starts
- in the environment if MGOTE ≤ T,
- locally if MGOTE ≥ T." [22]

Hence, during the early endgame at high temperature, the behaviour of a local endgame with gote and sente options is essentially the same as of an ordinary local endgame with one player's follow-up.

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