Progress as in developing skill. It's very rapid at double-digit kyu (ddk) level, for most players at least. Then for reasons unknown players just stop at plateau at some point. I'd like to think my plateaus have been about reaching theoretical threshold. There just wasn't good enough concepts that should be put into play. By concepts I mean things like "play light when outnumbered". Concepts guide your thinking and when you know what to look for, finding good moves becomes easy. I'm particularly fascinated of those players who "win by proverb", making moves that are at all times intuitively sound. (see Otake Hideo)

Could there be other hurdles as well? Perhaps there is limit in imagining. How accurately can you keep in mind the stones not yet played limits the kind of tsumego you can solve. In actual online playing overly complicated sequences are omitted. I think there is some kind of baseline ability, defined by the kind of problem you can solve within your attention span. Increasing attention span, or pruning the rarely working branches of moves should help to overcome this obstacle.

I think everyone has a natural level beyond which they will not progress. When you get to that point, you'll just float around a certain level, and not change. I've met a number of people who have been SDKs for ages; generally 6K or above. As you might say, we all reach the level of our incompetence.

I'd guess that structured learning with a teacher might help make a bit more progress, but when you've been at one level for a long time, you're stuck in a mind set that's hard to change.

(Just my opinion based on observations of myself and others...)

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You may enjoy this thread, "Getting past your OK plateau":

www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3259

[quote="Toge"]Progress as in developing skill. It's very rapid at double-digit kyu (ddk) level, for most players at least. Then for reasons unknown players just stop at plateau at some point. I'd like to think my plateaus have been about reaching theoretical threshold. There just wasn't good enough concepts that should be put into play. By concepts I mean things like "play light when outnumbered". Concepts guide your thinking and when you know what to look for, finding good moves becomes easy. I'm particularly fascinated of those players who "win by proverb", making moves that are at all times intuitively sound. (see Otake Hideo)

Could there be other hurdles as well? Perhaps there is limit in imagining. How accurately can you keep in mind the stones not yet played limits the kind of tsumego you can solve. In actual online playing overly complicated sequences are omitted. I think there is some kind of baseline ability, defined by the kind of problem you can solve within your attention span. Increasing attention span, or pruning the rarely working branches of moves should help to overcome this obstacle.[/quote]

I don't know what is your level but I believe a lot has to do with motivation. When progress is slower, benefits to play may feel scarcier. Whenever I think at what I know vs. what I can read in books, I do feel very humble.
I just don't know enough. The good thing is that I can see how much I can still learn.
To provide more details, since I've got a teacher, I was forced out of my comfort zone (territorial play) and I believe this was a necessary step for further improvement.
My teacher once said : "you can reach 1d level by only applying base principles. Exceptions are for further improvements.".

Progress slows as you advance because you must learn more between each stone. A 25k will beat a 30k because he or she knows 10 additional things. A 15k beats a 16k because he or she knows 500 extra things. 5k beats 6k with 1000 extra knowledge units. 2d beats 1d with 10000 extra knowledge units. (numbers made up to illustrate the sort of scale). You can get from 21 to 20k by learning 50 or 100 things. But at 4k, learning 50 or 100 things makes almost no noticeable difference at all.

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Progress stops when you..

1.reach the limit of your ability
2.reach the limit of your willingness to invest time and effort
3.run out of things to try when you've reached a plateau (similar to 1, but maybe if you knew another way...)
4.stop being properly critical of your efforts and their results

To further confuse things, you can run into several of the above options simultaneously.

You will have to acknowledge that either you're doing it wrong, you're not working hard enough, or you have hit the limit of your ability. It can be painful to acknowledge that something wasn't what you needed to do, after you've spent a long time doing it. It's even more painful to acknowledge you have been harming your progress.

Your worst enemy is laziness or overzealousness in self-criticism. If you are too lazy, you'll decide that you really did "feel" the correct answer to that tsumego, and you just didn't realize it. If you are too hard on yourself, you will spend a lot of energy on hating yourself for small mistakes, energy which is better spent on correcting them.

I have no advice on how to maintain ambition and motivation, though. Seems like you just have it, or just don't.

Is there an actual limit for mental abilities, or is it just a point where the required effort is "too much" or untackled? (unreasonable time investment, unwillingness to do what is required, lack of knowledge how to continue, ineffective approach, etc.). If there is a limit that is different for everyone, I'd throw in the thought that people who believe they are at the limit of their mental abilities are nowhere near to it.

I'm fond of Marcus Aurelius' statement that, "Because your own strength is unequal to the task, do not assume that it is beyond the powers of man; but if anything is within the powers and province of man, believe that it is within your own compass also."

simply, if you lose your interest your progress can stop.

There is most definitely a limit of mental ability, and it's completely unknown where that limit is until you try going past it.

We can only rate how smart people are by the most difficult thing they've done.

i think anyone can reach 8D level with proper studying and time and effort.
also i belive anyone can reach 1D level in 1 year with proper studying and effort.

if your are DDK and already reached your plateau... take a look at your game and see what your are doing wrong.
i guarantee you that there are mistakes that can be avoided if you put effort and time in reading.

i remember when i was SDK i played every move after at least 1 minute of reading.
although it look simple you and easy "should knock on a stone bridge before crossing".
that attitude alone will get you to low SKD.

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If that is true, a dan player should be able to comment kyu games by referring only to the basic principles. No variations, just basic principles. Exclusively comments like "that move is wrong because it violates this principle".
Is it really possible to write complete kyu game commentaries like that?

My intuitive answer to this question would be "of course not, what a silly question".

Here is my explanation:
For example the basic principle is "stay away from already strong groups". If the commentary says "that move is wrong because it is too close to a strong group" and stops there, it is simply incomplete. Why? Because it does not explain how you know that this specific group is strong (unless it's obvious of course). For understanding this, you need either to read or to remember the exact shape.

Then I don't understand how it is enough to know the basic principles to reach dan level? Or same thing put in another way, what exactly are these basic principles that carry you to dan level?

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It does not mean that. Even if you can reach 1d level by only applying base principles, it does not mean that there are even one player who actually got to 1d that way. Even if every 1d got there by only applying basic principles, it does not mean that they can write a commentary fo a kyu game refering to only those principles.

You need to learn how to apply the dynamic principles of go. That is how to improve. You do not need to learn all haengma and suji in the world.

But then, this would be a baseless assumption.



OK, maybe a 1d cannot because he has not yet completely internalized the basic principles. But what about a pro? Can they write a commentary based purely on principles? Probably not.



Of course! But doesn't that require reading? How can one then justify that basic principles are enough?
If basic principles include also reading, then how much reading is considered "basic", how deep and how wide?

This is where I am confused. I don't understand what exactly is meant by fundamentals or basics or whatever name you want to give it.

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Entropi - I think reading is one of the basic principles. If you don't read and you let your groups die, you've surely neglected one of go's basic tenets. What Actorios' teacher means is not that there are principles that allow one to mechanically place stones on the right intersections, rather that by playing the normal moves - which may entail recognizing a tesuji or reading out a ladder, and not playing the awful moves that follow principles like: DON'T KILL ME! or if you let your groups be killed and maimed without compensation, you should be able to reach 1d.

Kageyama also writes at one point in his fundamentals of go, that an expert is someone who just plays normal moves and that the moves he sees amateurs making are sometimes utterly preposterous, so yes, I think a pro could indeed easily ascertain which moves are not normal, i.e., go against fundamental principles. Whether or not one is capable of making the normal moves is another question.

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[quote="entropi"]
if that is true, a dan player should be able to comment kyu games by referring only to the basic principles. No variations, just basic principles. Exclusively comments like " that move is wrong because it violates this principle ".
Is it really possible to write complete kyu game commentaries like that?

My intuitive answer to this question would be "of course not, what a silly question".

Here is my explanation:
For example the basic principle is "stay away from already strong groups". If the commentary says "that move is wrong because it is too close to a strong group" and stops there, it is simply incomplete. Why? Because it does not explain how you know that this specific group is strong (unless it's obvious of course). For understanding this, you need either to read or to remember the exact shape.

Then I don't understand how it is enough to know the basic principles to reach dan level? Or same thing put in another way, what exactly are these basic principles that carry you to dan level?[/quote]

I will try not to misinterpret what I've been told : there are basic principles (example: play multiple-purposes moves, play at the meeting point of 2 weak groups, etc.) and exception to those basic principles. You basically don't have to know those exceptions to the basic principles to reach 1d. It is beyond this level that you need to update your mind to integrate those. Basically, you have to build your house on solid ground.
When I review game with my teacher, a lot of time is spent on correcting my mistake in applying or understanding those core principles. The key learnings are usually focused on those.

For more information on his vision of the game:
http://sites.google.com/site/aromogoschool/go

Thanks Actorios, reading Csaba's page, it's a bit clearer what he means.

Daal, I know reading is something very basic, but I don't see it as a "principle". Reading is endless, and it does not give any information to me if someone says "improve your reading and you will be dan player in no time".

If someone talks about some basic principles, there must be a well defined set of rules to study. Otherwise it is equivalent of saying "play only good moves and you will be very strong soon". It is true but does not contain any useful information (it's entropy is nearly zero )

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