I can´t express how sad i was to sit there on EuroGoTV watching a big european tournament and not being able to see Europeans at all.




and where does the money come from? most tournaments have no sponsor (or only free location), so 100% of the entry fee is already used for prices. You can´t expect to get money from EGF, since ING Foundation won´t pay anymore.



Those "weak european players" won´t go back to East Asia, they stay in Europe to teach and promote Go. All of them already spent hundreds and thousands of hours to promote Go, so it´s only fair they get some money to be able to continue their work. If they can´t win money, they won´t be able to attend many tournaments, so they have no chance to compete at all and probably switch to <insert random game here>

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igonoma.blogspot.com

I have no clue about the motivations of strong European players, but it seems to me like expecting to win money from tournaments for anything other than covering travelling costs to be pretty unreasonable (and even just that seems risky to depend on).

If money isn't the prime motivator, then I don't see why it is important to discourage non-Europeans from participating, since a steady stream of strong players from Asia probably can be just as helpful to other participants at tournaments?

Besides, is there really a big difference to the local players between an Asian winner and an European winner from far enough away that travelling costs become a major consideration?

As for being unable to compete, I'd imagine the prevalence of online servers to render that a non-issue.

It´s more like "if I win some money here, i can go to xxx"
Go tournaments are expensive if you attend lots of them. look at e.g. silt - he played 261 egf rated tournaments already.
let´s say the average tournament costs about 50€ (including traveling costs, registration fee, accomodation, food, ..)
so 250 tournaments cost about 12500€. not everybody is able to pay that much just to attend tournaments.



blitz games on <insert random go server here> are nothing compared to serious tournament games.

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igonoma.blogspot.com

So most players don't attend that many tournaments, not sure what the problem is?

Serious games against equal opponents are NOTHING compared to serious games against opponents who are quite a bit stronger? :p

I guess I'm just not sure why strong European players should be treated differently compared to less experienced players (for whom prize money and such are not major incentives). Then again, I'm not even in Europe, so perhaps my perspective is limited.

This, I think is the crux of the matter. If what we value, as the general go playing audience, is promotion and teaching of go, then we should spend our money on that. Prize money is a poor tool for this, as there is absolutely zero guarantee that the winner of that prize, whether Asian or local, will ever do anything significant towards go promotion.

Instead of high prize money, put some of that money towards attracting a strong player doing game reviews, or live commentary of the top board. Or award, as prizes to weaker players, prepaid teaching sessions with such strong players. I'm sure many players would love to win an hour of online teaching from any strong European player.

It would appear that Silt has won various prizes already and had several free trips to the Far East, so he has recouped a lot of his expenditure, and is possibly in profit. What has he (and other top Europeans) done for ordinary go players?

Many others of lower grade have spent at least that sort of money and/or time) and much more (travel, teaching, organising events, writing books, running associations). What have they done for ordinary go players?

The profit-and-loss account looks pretty clear.



Precisely. Something for the ordinary player. If the stronger Europeans want to be nurtured specially, they have to give something back to ordinary players. There are plenty of weaker players who teach/organise/adminsiter/write they can learn from as regards giving back. If they want only to be stronger players, fine (maybe self centred but not ignoble) - but that means hard, relentless work and challenging really strong players, not subsidies. Depriving really strong players of the incentive to come to Europe by snaffling the prizes as subsidies means not getting to challenge really strong players. How can these European wannabee professionals then become stronger?

As I have recounted at great length in "The Insha Match", Japanese professionals were in a parlous position at the start of the 20th century. On top of the lack of sponsorship and national interest and the competition, the 1923 earthquake destroyed their offices and homes. They did not sit and whinge about prize money (well, some did ). They themselves put in all the very hard work, and made the sacrifices, necessary to find the sponsors, the publishers and the public. They did not rely on amateurs. That is the sort of spirit that is needed for a European or American Ki-in.

Most strong Europeans I recall spend extraordinarily much free time for teaching, organization etc.

And to put aside that much time it is very hard to have a regular job. So earning money on go is their only way to continue promoting it without dying of famine. And, if they don't win money on tournaments, it is very hard to earn enough...

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Then again, one can only gamble on prize-money. Secondly, I, for instance, don't pay my entry-fee to support stronger players.
European tournaments are no excuse to make a livelihood on Go, they are a gathering of various players, who should have a nice time playing and learning together. I find it particularly sad that it should just be about money for like... what, 30 players in Europe?

As long as the prize-money primarily comes from players, who don't have a chance of getting anything back, no one ought to have a "right" on winning it. If you can't compete with asians, become stronger, i.e. by playing against them. They weren't born strong, you know?

Funny thing aside, we hold all those asian pro-games in high esteem and try to learn from them but when by chance a pro (let alone three!) comes and takes part in one of our own tournaments, his games are suddenly a nuisance. Very convenient.

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My "guide" to become stronger in Go

You haven't died of starvation and don't make a living from go, so you presumably have a regular job. You have told us often you have spent a phenomenal amount of time on go - 2,345,679.333 recurring hours, was it? . I'd therefore expect it to be possible for someone else to spend that sort of time on pure go and yet likewise have a regular job, and eventually to be able to compete with Oriental professionals.

And please avoid tendentiousness. "Earning money on go" is not necessarily even one way of "promoting it", let alone the only way. I don't believe even an Oriental pro thinks he is putting in ten thousand hours to promote go. He's just trying to earn a living at something he enjoys.

A lot of weak Europeans, who never dream of winning tournaments and earning price money, spend an extraordinary amount of time on Go promotion as well. Who organises all those tournaments, manage the affairs of local clubs, even attract some sponsorship? Usually it is the local 1 dan or 4 kyu or 10 kyu guy or gal. I mean, Robert, look around in Berlin, who organises the clubs and tournaments, who teaches most, who does the best work in reaching out to newcomers there?

In the end it boils down to sociology/economy: You can't sustain a professional circuit in too small a population. Lamenting about that won't change the facts. Either organise outside sponsorship or expand that population, though even if successful it won't be our generation of players to benefit from the effort, but those 6 y.o. that start learning today or tomorrow. Stop dreaming.

Addition: I find it really disingenious to claim the resident professionals and ex-insei are not teaching/promoting or only doing so temporarily before going back to Asia. Many of them definitely settled in Europe, incl. families, while others may not do so but still are basically teaching full time while in Europe thanks to Korean sponsorship for European Go.

There are also prizes for weaker players with good scores.



Why do you ask? It makes more sense to watch ALL activities, local, national, international, real, internet.



Has also been done in the past.

I'm a student, so I probably have more time then people with regular jobs...

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I'm sorry (all round): I was misled by a double quote block above into thinking it was Robert who made the statement.

These people who won the Paris tournament have done more to help European go than many Europeans.

Oh, that explains a few things. No problems

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Stop whining!!!!!!!!!
It is small fee to experience pro level go. How else can you learn more ? By book? Look at French open(Tennis or Golf). I would think that they want to attract as many as top players in the world. Why is go different? Looks like some few affected by pro is complaining.

That's life. Professionals contact tournament organisers and arrange fees to come and do teaching weekends and evenings and the like. If strong Europeans want to do this alongside an event, more power to them - I'd certainly be very happy if part of my entry fee went to a strong player offering teaching, even at cost. It seems a very appropriate thing for the money to go towards. However, prizes should go to the winner. If they are strong enough, they can get the prizes, if they aren't, they don't.



I agree that this is sad. However, that's not the fault of allowing non-Europeans to play, it's a problem that Europeans aren't strong enough. If I'm a big fan of a snooker or tennis player that happens to be outside of the top 100, I could be really unhappy that I don't get to watch them when the sport happens to be on the TV, or I could accept that they aren't strong enough to get to the televised rounds.

Frankly, I would like to see this whole "I want to see Europeans" thing disappear, it really feels somewhat racist. I don't care if the top boards are black, white, Korean, German, Argentinian, male, female, 75 years old, 10 years old, disabled, or whatever. What I want to see is really really strong Go players. The French Open had that in abundance, and I thought it was fantastic. Sure, if we had 4 Europeans on the top board that were playing even stronger than all the pros that would be awesome (in fact, probably more awesome as it would hint that the Go scene over here is finally getting really truly strong), but it wasn't the case. As it was, I was delighted that we could boast so much GoR 2750 talent on display. Congratulations to the organisers for making it happen.

On that note, I would like to speak out for the unsung heroes in this thread that I personally think deserve the money as much as any strong players: namely, the organisers, the event promoters, and the administrators of all these great tournaments I get the pleasure to attend. If my money and fee (I expect to bear a financial burden when visiting an event, and would still expect to have to if I became a lot stronger) go towards making sure the event runs smoothly and more events happen in the future, I will remain very happy. If it costs a bit more because they are also intending on having someone particularly strong attend the event and do a simul and/or a lecture or two, I'll make the most of the added value and enjoy those too.

Hello everyone,

i personnally enjoy having top pros playing go in our domestic tournaments because it is challenging and a healthy rivalry with asian players can only allows us to improve our level.

It's also true that it is a shame that a good european player can't attend to a tournament due to financial issues but wouldn't it be the aim of the European Go Foundation to help our best players to attend big tournaments ?

How long has Liu Yuanbo been in Europe? He played a tournament back in 2010 as well.

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