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 Post subject: the best way to study
Post #1 Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 6:24 pm 
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I would be interested in hearing opinions on what the best way to study would be. I remember having read somewhere that western players who go to japan to study as insei learn how to study as opposed to being coached by a professional all the time. I do agree that a good teacher is a significant help, though. i've mostly just stuck with go problems, pro games, and playing games. so what do you guys think is the best way to study? or is there even a best or most efficient way to study at all?

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Post #2 Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 7:31 pm 
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Reviews from stronger players+tsumego and books is the way to go. :)

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Post #3 Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:18 am 
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I have compiled a page on Sensei's Library with all my thoughts on improvement based on what made me stronger.
In short: Many Tsumegos, many games, a lot of reviews of lost games (by oneself or stronger players).

http://senseis.xmp.net/?SoDesuNe

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Post #4 Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:56 am 
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Since you are asking for the best way, do ALL of the following:
- play a lot
- review your own games alone, with opponent, with kibitzes, with teachers
- read each book you can find in any language, esp. the better books
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/isbn.html
- follow basic advice like
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/improve.html
- read all the good webpages with correct contents
- for a start, solve at least 1500 problems
- study at least 1500 pro games (for the beginning, first 170 moves will do, but later you need to study also the endgame)
- take all those good teachers from that you do learn a lot, example:
http://home.snafu.de/jasiek/teach.html
- attend each relevant tournament
- research in go knowledge where you can't find anything for a topic
- find out your weaknesses or let teachers tell you, then concentrate study on them
- enjoy what you are doing

16 hours per day should be the aim, but 14 are acceptable.

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Post #5 Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:01 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
16 hours per day should be the aim, but 14 are acceptable.

I have to disagree. If you study in the optimal way, eat, sleep and exercise properly, avoid alcohol and stimulants, and take short breaks every few weeks, then 13 1/2 hours a day should be enough.


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Post #6 Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:58 am 
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Actually reports by fast improving players are pretty different. A very few have claimed almost not to have studied at all. A few say 7 or 9 hours. The majority seems to be in the eat, sleep or study camp. The 16 or (on lazy days) 14 hours are my experience.

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Post #7 Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:25 pm 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Actually reports by fast improving players are pretty different. A very few have claimed almost not to have studied at all. A few say 7 or 9 hours. The majority seems to be in the eat, sleep or study camp. The 16 or (on lazy days) 14 hours are my experience.



I find it pretty much impossible to stay concentrated for over 10 hours per day. Even professionals say to study over 10 hours per day, and that should probably be about 10 hours. If they studied much more, they would say over 11 hours. I am pretty sure that about 6-7 hours per day are a lot of time and you can learn very much that way, and have time for plenty of sleep, food, even maybe leaving the house every day! Also, I am sure that a lot of people would visit your teaching and book page even if you put the link in your signature only, and that way avoid spamming every possible post that has keyword book, study, improve, teacher or something. Of course, it is very nice to let people know about your wonderful prices for 10+ SGF variations per game and generalized advice on your major general weaknesses. You really made my day when I saw it!

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Post #8 Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 12:43 pm 
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16 hours study per day might be too much indeed, mixture can be important: playing 8 and studying 8 hours or so. (I don't like forum or newsgroup signatures. Spam or not - they just fill too much space.)

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Post #9 Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:43 pm 
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Physical exercise and well being is also more important than many Go players give it credit for. 16 hours of study operating at low efficiency is always going to be a waste of time. It's better to take some time out of that to exercise, eat well, sleep and give your brain time to consolidate things.

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Post #10 Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:15 am 
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I like studying by playing many, many fast or blitz games mixed with some amount of tsumego, but I haven't tried any other way of improving so I have no way to determine how good this is.

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Post #11 Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:27 pm 
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the best way to study is just choose what works for you

some people can only study for 2 hours some can only do it for like 10 mins
it depends on the person
playing is also considered studying cept you probably enjoy playing more

the most improvement i've had was just purely from reading books, understanding concepts and doing tsumegos
after that my levels in games increased dramatically

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Post #12 Posted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:14 pm 
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gogameguru wrote:
Physical exercise and well being is also more important than many Go players give it credit for. 16 hours of study operating at low efficiency is always going to be a waste of time. It's better to take some time out of that to exercise, eat well, sleep and give your brain time to consolidate things.


This is important. :) I have been guilty of going off the rails and indulging in unbalanced study behaviour. But what I find is, when I start to exercise it snowballs to a point where I don't do anything else.

My unbalanced study time consists of problems, problems, problems and nothing else, with a few breaks to watch a game or two. I'm trying to completely consume Graded Go Problems III until I can instantly see the solution to each problem. I've been doing this for six weeks and I think it will take me another six weeks. No theory, just problems. This is because I'm weak with shape and tactics. I think attacking your weaknesses is a good way to study.

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Post #13 Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:27 am 
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singular wrote:
with a few breaks to watch a game or two.


Maybe you're doing this for fun, but I think most people will tell you that watching amateur players won't make you stronger.

Quote:
I'm trying to completely consume Graded Go Problems III until I can instantly see the solution to each problem. I've been doing this for six weeks and I think it will take me another six weeks.


I think this might be more effective if you were spending time with other tsumego sets in between each run-through of GGP3. There's always a question with tsumego as to whether your reading is becoming lightning-quick, or you're just memorizing the problem. Former good, latter bad; especially a problem with the GGPFB books because every problem has a verbal prompt.

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Post #14 Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:57 pm 
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jts wrote:
singular wrote:
with a few breaks to watch a game or two.


Maybe you're doing this for fun, but I think most people will tell you that watching amateur players won't make you stronger.

Quote:
I'm trying to completely consume Graded Go Problems III until I can instantly see the solution to each problem. I've been doing this for six weeks and I think it will take me another six weeks.


I think this might be more effective if you were spending time with other tsumego sets in between each run-through of GGP3. There's always a question with tsumego as to whether your reading is becoming lightning-quick, or you're just memorizing the problem. Former good, latter bad; especially a problem with the GGPFB books because every problem has a verbal prompt.


I think it's quite the contrary in both cases ; )

Everybody tells me to replay pro-games and I don't find it useful at all, because:

Quote:
a) The obvious one: Replaying and memorizing professional games takes a lot of time. When I would sit down and do this, I could easily do a bunch of Tsumegos, play a game and get it reviewed in the meantime instead.
So if you really want to follow this approach, be sure about two things: You have the necessary spare time and you will have to do it for a considerable amount of time, respective amount of professional games. Otherwise there will be almost no effect.

b) Understanding or just copying? Depending on your rank there will be a high chance that you will not understand every move of the game you're replaying. This strongly applies to most games with comments from internet sources, where it just says "A sharp move!" and offers maybe one variation every fifty moves. Printed books (e.g. Invincible or books by John Fairbairn) are a lot better in this regard.
The point here is: Copying moves does not enrich your play. The idea behind replaying professional games is not to be able to copy the moves but to understand why the players played the way they did, what a certain move should achieve, what they plan and so on. In the long shot you should get a broader view of the Go board to better assess the position and play according to a strategy: That is, shape, direction and flow.

c) If you have read Attack and Defense, you will have noticed that there are also quite a few professional games to illustrate certain principles. I really like this approach and that is at the same time a downside in replaying ("raw") professional games. Most of the time you don't have a focus on certain aspects, you just replay and memorize. So you can't tell - in general - what a game has taught or will teach you if you did not focus on it in the first place. To do so requires some thoughts before you even start looking at the game: What do you want to learn? And if you have a clear conscience, why don't you buy a book, which is specialized on this particular matter in the first place? (Like Attack and Defense.)


And for memorizing Tsumegos, I think it's a good way to internalize basic shapes. So everything up to Graded Go Problems for Beginners Vol. 4 will often come up in your game, so why is it bad to know in an instant where to move?

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Post #15 Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:30 pm 
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Quote:
And for memorizing Tsumegos, I think it's a good way to internalize basic shapes. So everything up to Graded Go Problems for Beginners Vol. 4 will often come up in your game, so why is it bad to know in an instant where to move?


Hey SDN, I'm sure you're more qualified to give advice than I am, but I think you misunderstood what I said.

First, I wasn't saying singular should play through pro games, I was saying he shouldn't watch amateur games (for improvement, that is... obviously it's a ton of fun, and I do it all the time).

Second, the inutility of copying moves was my point. If you redo a set of tsumego immediately after the you finish it, especially when each problem has a verbal cue, you are likely to remember the solution because you remember it, rather than because you have internalized the principles that make it the solution. If you are only remembering the solution, rather than how to find the solution, then you won't be able to handle a similar situation in a game.

If you actually disagree with me, I would love for you to explain why I'm wrong.

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Post #16 Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:03 pm 
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I am not sure that replaying - or better: memorizing - professional games doesn't help improving your play. In another thread we had this discussion, and especially this posting by a 5d makes me sure that memorizing pro games is an efficient way of studying. Once I've found back my motivation, this will surely be part of my studies.

As for doing tsumego I have started GGPB vol. 4 last week. My goal is to memorize all the tsumegos. But it's not only that: In case I failed at solving a tsumego (such where reading is supposed to be involved), I find out why I failed. It means that I don't know some more basic shapes. Then I create new problems from the book's one, usually two or three variations with the more basic shapes. This includes variations where I am dissatisfied with the book's solution. After I have memorized them, the book's problem seems easy to solve. Seems a good way to learn L&D and tesuji.

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Post #17 Posted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:08 pm 
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jts wrote:
Quote:
And for memorizing Tsumegos, I think it's a good way to internalize basic shapes. So everything up to Graded Go Problems for Beginners Vol. 4 will often come up in your game, so why is it bad to know in an instant where to move?


Hey SDN, I'm sure you're more qualified to give advice than I am, but I think you misunderstood what I said.

First, I wasn't saying singular should play through pro games, I was saying he shouldn't watch amateur games (for improvement, that is... obviously it's a ton of fun, and I do it all the time).

Second, the inutility of copying moves was my point. If you redo a set of tsumego immediately after the you finish it, especially when each problem has a verbal cue, you are likely to remember the solution because you remember it, rather than because you have internalized the principles that make it the solution. If you are only remembering the solution, rather than how to find the solution, then you won't be able to handle a similar situation in a game.

If you actually disagree with me, I would love for you to explain why I'm wrong.



I agree, watching high-dan amateur games is a ton of fun. :) I prefer that more often than, say, watching TV. The idea is that between sets of tsumego I take a break by watching high-dan games. :mrgreen:

But I also think that something stirs in the mind basement when watching them, something that may in the long-run contribute to improvement. When I see the moves these players make I see possibilities I have no way to educe on my own. It's a bit like going to another country and seeing another culture, being a tourist, which teaches you things about the world. In this case I'm being taught things about Go. I suppose the effect is inchoate but it helps with an 'awakening' of some kind.

It's the same thing with the shapes these players use, which can be 'internalised' I suppose in a similar way to going over and over and over a set of 421 tsumego such as is found in GGPfBIII. When playing my own games I've had a few sparks of ideas taken from watching high-dan games, and these will contribute in some vague way to improvement in the long run. Improvement is often hard to measure anyway, because it involves playing 250 or so moves each with a tiny, tiny, tiny, degree more efficiency, which is why it's often baffling when rank goes up. ;-)

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Post #18 Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 2:11 am 
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jts wrote:
Quote:
And for memorizing Tsumegos, I think it's a good way to internalize basic shapes. So everything up to Graded Go Problems for Beginners Vol. 4 will often come up in your game, so why is it bad to know in an instant where to move?


Hey SDN, I'm sure you're more qualified to give advice than I am, but I think you misunderstood what I said.

First, I wasn't saying singular should play through pro games, I was saying he shouldn't watch amateur games (for improvement, that is... obviously it's a ton of fun, and I do it all the time).

Second, the inutility of copying moves was my point. If you redo a set of tsumego immediately after the you finish it, especially when each problem has a verbal cue, you are likely to remember the solution because you remember it, rather than because you have internalized the principles that make it the solution. If you are only remembering the solution, rather than how to find the solution, then you won't be able to handle a similar situation in a game.

If you actually disagree with me, I would love for you to explain why I'm wrong.


I highly doubt that I'm more qualified than you or anyone else. I just wanted to point out that I don't understand all the advice, which is giving here and there. At least personal experience showed me that some of these advice does not work for me, so maybe it will not work for others as well.

And yeah, I jumped the gun with implying your underlying statement was replaying pro-games is better than watching amateur games, I'm sorry ^^

In my opinion with memorizing Tsumegos, it's not about remembering the solution in the first place, but about remembering the problem, respectively the shape of it. You have to know certain shapes in Go to improve, of course while learning those, you'll learn their weaknesses and thus learn the solution to the problem but at first you must recognize the shape.

For instance:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Situation a) Can White kill?
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . O X X . . . . |
$$ . O O O X X X . |
$$ . . , O O O O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Situation b) Can White kill?
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . O X X . . . . |
$$ . O O O X X X . |
$$ . . , O O O O X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]


If you just learn the solution, e.g. in problem 220 on page xxx the right move is ... then you won't learn much, I agree.

karaklis wrote:
I am not sure that replaying - or better: memorizing - professional games doesn't help improving your play. In another thread we had this discussion, and especially this posting by a 5d makes me sure that memorizing pro games is an efficient way of studying. Once I've found back my motivation, this will surely be part of my studies.


My point was not to say, replaying professional games doesn't help you to improve, it was just a consideration on e.g. how much time is needed to make this beneficial (see your linked post). I think the time can better be spend on games, reviews and Tsumegos or reading books about strategy, which illustrate certain principles by using professional games as an example.
Personally I think, if someone really puts his mind into doing hundred Tsumegos and Tesujis every day for one year, he will improve at the same pace.

In the end, of course, if you have fun replaying and memorizing professional games, do it! It won't be bad, but I don't think it's the holy grail. Friends of mine replay a game a day for a couple of years and they aren't considerable stronger than I am, although I only tried replaying and memorizing once and it bored me to death after the third game.

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Post #19 Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 8:10 am 
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Memorizing the problems is the wrong way to do tsumego. Sure you will learn the moves that kills, and it will help if that shape occurs in an actual game. So I am not saying it is useless. But it will not make you better at reading. L&D problems, when done properly, develops reading, which is useful not only for tsumego-like situations but for the whole game (not only for killing enclosed groups).

Recently posted on this forum, Cho Chikun on tsumego: http://tchan001.wordpress.com/2011/06/0 ... lculation/
Some general study advice from ex-inseis: http://senseis.xmp.net/?BenjaminTeuber% ... comeStrong
http://www.361points.com/study/

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Post #20 Posted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 12:03 pm 
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Memorizing tsumego helps you with reading by reducing the search tree significantly. Of course it is useless to memorize tens of thousands of tsumego. But there are surely more than a thousand of basic shapes that you should know in order to allow an efficient reading. When writing about this I had an article about how to study life and death in mind where it is recommended to hardwire life and death problems. To me this sounds very sensible.

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