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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 2D
Post #41 Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:52 pm 
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Araban wrote:
Experiment with various time settings and find what suits you best, just like what any other mad scientist drinking Dr. Pepper would do.


Are you stalking me? ... you seem to reference everything I do the day after I start.

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 2D
Post #42 Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:56 pm 
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Spezi wrote:
Thank you for the tips.
Tried to play a game the way you said. Time was 30min+30s, but it seems to be far too little time for me. It seems I need like 3h pro player. Didn't take many moves to reach byoyomi. Does 30min+30s count as fast or as slow? Nonetheless, it's clearly not enough time. When I reach byoyomi I can't think clearly anymore. Did quite some mistakes. Lost the game. I will review it later on. You don't have to do it. I simply attach it because doing so does no harm. I'm playing white.


That's right. For the purposes of this exercise, 30 mins won't seem like much time. It's usually hard to find people who want to play more slowly though, except in tournaments. It's hard for you now because this might be the first time you've approached the game this way. It's partly the challenge of this that will help you get stronger.

In some book I read about human learning, they used the mnemonic 'FEED' - as in feed your brain. It stands for Focus, Effort, Effortlessness, Determination. The point is, that learning new skills is often hard, but if you stay focused on doing your best and put in the effort, even when it's tough, it will help you reach a level of competency where what was hard before suddenly seems effortless. From memory, determination was there mainly to point out that you have certain goals you're aiming towards and once you reach effortlessness, you raise the bar and start the cycle again, instead of stopping.

When I play like this, 30 mins doesn't seem like that long. However, after awhile you'll get into the habit of looking at the whole board, so you won't have to consciously think about that so much. Also, your reading should start to get more efficient and if you read things out accurately and remember the results (including moves x, y. z are sente against this group) then you don't always need to re-read later. This way you can make up a lot of time later in the game, because you already know the result.

If you have to save time somewhere, I'd recommend playing a straightforward, solid opening and then using most of your time on finding opportunities in the middle game. This is where most amateur games are decided. A solid opening gives you a good foundation for fighting later if you want to.

Remember though that you're trying really hard and reading fast, you're not just taking your time because it's not a 'fast' game.

One of the great benefits of doing lots of tesuji and life and death problems is that it will make your reading more efficient, especially once sharp moves become reflexive for you.

The advantage of reviewing all your games is that you have all the time you want to think about the whole board and read deeply. Take all the time you want. I really think reviewing thoroughly is one of the keys to improving.

It's not the only way, as Araban has said, but it's one way which is worth trying for awhile.

Personally at one stage I tried following the standard advice about blitz games. That took me from about 7d on Tygem back to 5d (back before Tygem had an English client) and it took awhile to recover. So the blitz advice doesn't work for me, but it might work for others. After I started having lessons with An Younggil, he also told me that blitz would make me weaker. It may be different for people who are younger? I'm not sure where the blitz advice comes from.

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 2D
Post #43 Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:09 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
Really? It'd be surprising to me if improvement were impossible at any point.


- If that were true, why would there be age limit in pro exams? Learning is naturally faster the younger we are. To be become better Go player, you have to beat your previous self. That means more knowledge and/or better computing. Unfortunately those are going to deteriorate over time.

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 2D
Post #44 Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:17 pm 
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Toge wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Really? It'd be surprising to me if improvement were impossible at any point.


- If that were true, why would there be age limit in pro exams? Learning is naturally faster the younger we are. To be become better Go player, you have to beat your previous self. That means more knowledge and/or better computing. Unfortunately those are going to deteriorate over time.


I think it's for more pragmatic reasons. Like they want younger people who are more likely to put up with weird schedules, etc. because they're after a career. A 50 year old retiree might play excellent go but not be willing to put up with the harsh schedule a young pro has to. Also young up and comers and more likely to generate excitement (and thus money) than a 50 year old new to the scene. Also, to become pro you really need to devote considerable time, so they might want to discourage mid 20s almost pros (who are like 4/5th each year) from continuing on with go, and pick and actual career that is going to make them money. It might just be cultural as well.

There are certainly ameteurs who are more than strong enough to pass the pro exam, and probably became that strong after they were past the age limit (ex inseis especially, if they continued playing after not going pro).

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 2D
Post #45 Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:38 pm 
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Toge wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Really? It'd be surprising to me if improvement were impossible at any point.


- If that were true, why would there be age limit in pro exams? Learning is naturally faster the younger we are. To be become better Go player, you have to beat your previous self. That means more knowledge and/or better computing. Unfortunately those are going to deteriorate over time.

Even if learning is faster when younger, that doesn't mean that someone well past the pro age limit can't still be getting stronger.

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 2D
Post #46 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:54 am 
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gogameguru wrote:
I'm not sure where the blitz advice comes from.


Maybe it is good advice for people with a lesser amount of bad habits, who don't have to struggle to get rid of them, but just need to improve by more games, more reading, more experience. I always have the feeling I have to altogether change my game to get stronger. I did this to reach EGF 1d, what I am now, and I feel I have to do this again to improve further. Many players who reached dan ranks are in love with their bad habits and are not willing to unlearn them.

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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 2D
Post #47 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:02 pm 
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I recommend trying to play on Tygem or Wbaduk. The style is much different than KGS/IGS and it may give you some good experience. The lower dan ranks are weaker than KGS so I would set your rank 1 or 2 stones higher on these servers.

If you really want to get stronger I would recommend looking around for teachers, you can try many different ones until you find a teaching style you enjoy.

Also as a side note, a strong player once told me to get to 5-6d all you really need to do is get very good at tesuji and know a little about the opening.

Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 2D
Post #48 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:26 am 
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First: progress slows down, in any field for anyone. If you became 2d in 1y, then surely it cannot end here - it's different for someone who has held the same rank for years.

With fast progress the issue may be that you know only one way to progress. Myself I went from 2k to 2d by having a rival with whom I played long games and did intensive self review, eradicating the moves I recognized as problematic. I can't tell you how I moved beyond because I'm stuck there too. :) But I still believe I can make it as far as 4-5 dan if I would start playing and studying again.

What I can add to the many wise words in other posts is what I do when I feel no progress on the guitar, which is what I'm concentrating on the last years. After a period of study to improve technique, I replay old stuff. In the best of cases I have kept track of the tempo at which I could play it flawlessly. Most of the time I'm faster now.

You could review games from your past to "feel" progress.


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 Post subject: Re: Stuck at 2D
Post #49 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:01 am 
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Spezi wrote:
Hi,
it took me 1 year to reach EGF 2D (from 30K). I simply read a lot of books (like "Attack and Defense", "In the beginning", "Lessons in the fundamental of Go", "Tesuji", "The Endgame") and played a lot of games. I read a book, learned new things, improved. That was like 3 years ago. Since then I didn't improve at all, still 2D. I can't find any books that make me think "ah, learned something new, cool". Solving tsumego doesn't seem to imrove my game, too. Did a lot of those. Not looking at the solution, solve the next one after I'm sure I have it right. Didn't feel like I improved at all, not even my reading ability. From the book "Tesuji", for example, I improved a lot (maybe the best book I read so far). But reading more advanced tesuji books seem like a waste of time (dictionaries and problem books). Don't feel any improvement. Replaying professional games doesn't seem to help me. And playing games seems pointless, too. I didn't learn any new things I can apply, after all. Playing games feels different from playing them when I was learning new things. It's not like I stopped playing or reading for the last 3 years. I simply didn't improve. I can't find any books that teach me any more things. And I don't think I ever improved by solving problems. When solving problesm I apply what I already know, nothing new. Till I was 2D I never did any tsumego or replay professional games. Only read books and played games. It's not that I didn't play games, read books, solved life and death problems or replayed professional games in the last 3 years since it seemed pointless. Did it all, a lot, since I want to improve. But now I'm thinking of givin up. So I'm clueless on what to do. Any advice or book recommendation?
Thank you :bow:


Book recommendations? High level books in Chinese, Korean, or Japanese.

But it sounds like you have some blind spots. Find a teacher who can identify them and help you overcome them. :)

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