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Stuck at 2D
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4230		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Spezi [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Stuck at 2D
Hi,
it took me 1 year to reach EGF 2D (from 30K). I simply read a lot of books (like "Attack and Defense", "In the beginning", "Lessons in the fundamental of Go", "Tesuji", "The Endgame") and played a lot of games. I read a book, learned new things, improved. That was like 3 years ago. Since then I didn't improve at all, still 2D. I can't find any books that make me think "ah, learned something new, cool". Solving tsumego doesn't seem to imrove my game, too. Did a lot of those. Not looking at the solution, solve the next one after I'm sure I have it right. Didn't feel like I improved at all, not even my reading ability. From the book "Tesuji", for example, I improved a lot (maybe the best book I read so far). But reading more advanced tesuji books seem like a waste of time (dictionaries and problem books). Don't feel any improvement. Replaying professional games doesn't seem to help me. And playing games seems pointless, too. I didn't learn any new things I can apply, after all. Playing games feels different from playing them when I was learning new things. It's not like I stopped playing or reading for the last 3 years. I simply didn't improve. I can't find any books that teach me any more things. And I don't think I ever improved by solving problems. When solving problesm I apply what I already know, nothing new. Till I was 2D I never did any tsumego or replay professional games. Only read books and played games. It's not that I didn't play games, read books, solved life and death problems or replayed professional games in the last 3 years since it seemed pointless. Did it all, a lot, since I want to improve. But now I'm thinking of givin up. So I'm clueless on what to do. Any advice or book recommendation?
Thank you :bow:
Author:  Kirby [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
Spezi wrote:
...And playing games seems pointless, too.


Why is it pointless?

Spezi wrote:
...
Did it all, a lot, since I want to improve. But now I'm thinking of givin up. So I'm clueless on what to do. Any advice or book recommendation?
Thank you :bow:


What is the reason you want to improve?
Author:  Spezi [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
Kirby wrote:
Why is it pointless?

There's nothing new, it's like it's always the same game. Placing some stones, feeling unsatisfied because I played like detritus and it was the same again. I didn't learn anything new I can apply to my game.
Spezi wrote:
What is the reason you want to improve?

Simply want to be better. And I want to know more about what I play. When I play it feels like I'm a beginner. So I guess playing would be more fun if I were better.
Author:  Kirby [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
Spezi wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Why is it pointless?

There's nothing new, it's like it's always the same game. Placing some stones, feeling unsatisfied because I played like detritus and it was the same again. I didn't learn anything new I can apply to my game.
Spezi wrote:
What is the reason you want to improve?

Simply want to be better. And I want to know more about what I play. When I play it feels like I'm a beginner. So I guess playing would be more fun if I were better.


I guess, if you feel unsatisfied with the moves you are playing, maybe you can take your time and find a move that you are satisfied with before playing it(?)...
Author:  dedroid [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
try taking a lesson with a stronger player, they can point out what you're weak at and you can work on it. the fun part in that is finding out why you were weak at it, and improving.
Author:  Bantari [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
Spezi wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Why is it pointless?

There's nothing new, it's like it's always the same game. Placing some stones, feeling unsatisfied because I played like detritus and it was the same again. I didn't learn anything new I can apply to my game.
Spezi wrote:
What is the reason you want to improve?

Simply want to be better. And I want to know more about what I play. When I play it feels like I'm a beginner. So I guess playing would be more fun if I were better.


It seems to me that you don't really care about Go, just enjoy the feeling of improving.
Here is my advice to you: switch to chess! Then, once you reach a level past which you actually have to work harder than you are willing to to improve, switch to checkers... or bridge... or poker... or tic-tac-toe... you get my point, I believe. This way - you will always improve and always have fun and games will never be 'pointless' to you.

Wish you best! ;)
Author:  topazg [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
Is there any way you can get satisfaction from the game without continually improving? If you want improvement, why not take up a new hobby that you're a beginner at, and appreciate fast progress in that?

Alternatively, if Go is what you really want to play, maybe start teaching others and getting satisfaction from their improvement? Or, play to enjoy the game regardless of whether you ever get better or not - if you can (I'm assuming you find this challenging?)
Author:  Numsgil [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
I think most amateurs need professional guidance to "unlearn" the bad habits that hamstring their progress. So I'd look in to lessons. If nothing else a pro would be able to point out what you're weak at and give you some ideas about what to do to improve.

Also, problems really are indispensable if you want to train up your reading, which is the basis of high level play. Even (especially) top professionals constantly do problems. There just isn't a substitute.

Also, what time settings are your games usually? If you play a lot of blitz, you should stretch yourself and play longer games, where deeper reading is required. If you play a lot of slow games, you should try blitz to hone your intuition.

Last, purely out of curiosity, how many games did you play in the first year? It's taken me about 1300 games to get to KGS 3k. I think most people take about 1000-2000 games to reach dan level (depending on the amount of study vs. play and other factors).
Author:  Spezi [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
I don't plan on starting playing other games; played chess, but I think Go is more fun. So it's not like playing Go without improving is no fun at all (otherwise I wouldn't have done so the last 3 years without improving), it's just less fun. I did take some lessons, but without results. But not from a professional; I don't have much money. I think if I had a better understanding of Go it would be more fun. Getting better at some random games wouldn't make me happy. I don't plan on teaching Go. In my opinion I understand it too little to teach someone. Teaching someone who could profit by having me teach him could improve faster by simply playing games and reading the books I told about (one reason I listed them) (in my opinion) (from my experience). I don't always play the same time setting, differs a lot.
edit:How many games did I play to reach 2D? When a year has 365 days, maybe 365? Not sure :D
Author:  Solomon [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
Fly to Japan/Korea/China and undergo insei/yeonguseng/yuansheng training, it's the only way.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
If you're truly stuck, I would look into getting a professional teacher to help you. They'll be able to point out your shortcomings best and help you improve. Getting teaching and doing tsumego seems like a pretty good formula. You said you've done both of these and didn't improve, so may I ask how long you kept each of them up?

By the way, I completely understand the desire to keep improving at Go. I share the same goal, and I honestly wouldn't find Go interesting if I knew I could never improve past where I am at right now.
Author:  Spezi [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
Not sure about how long I got teached. Maybe like 20-30 times.
Author:  Bantari [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
Spezi wrote:
I don't plan on starting playing other games; played chess, but I think Go is more fun. So it's not like playing Go without improving is no fun at all (otherwise I wouldn't have done so the last 3 years without improving), it's just less fun. I did take some lessons, but without results. But not from a professional; I don't have much money. I think if I had a better understanding of Go it would be more fun. Getting better at some random games wouldn't make me happy. I don't plan on teaching Go. In my opinion I understand it too little to teach someone. Teaching someone who could profit by having me teach him could improve faster by simply playing games and reading the books I told about (one reason I listed them) (in my opinion) (from my experience). I don't always play the same time setting, differs a lot.
edit:How many games did I play to reach 2D? When a year has 365 days, maybe 365? Not sure :D


Well, then...
Everyone reaches a level past which we do not improve.
I don't know if you reached yours... but if not now, it will happen at some point.

I think its best to get comfortable with this idea... ;)

Other than this, i do not have a good advice. Everybody improves differently, and everybody needs different things to improve. If there was a universal formula, we would all be pros now, and life would be VERY boring! The only general rule I can think of is that - if you have fun, you tend to improve, and if you don't then you don't. So the first step for you would be to figure out why you stopped having fun and you see your games as pointless. If it is all about improving, see my previous post. If there is more to it for you, figure out what else is missing.

Hope this helps.
Author:  Numsgil [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
Do you play online or just at a local club? What sort of style do you regularly play? Online play is good for exposure to lots of really different play styles. Playing with a different style than you're used to is good for stretching yourself for similar reasons.

For instance, if you normally play Moyo style, playing territorially instead is quite eye opening.

You can also post a sample game where you lost. There are enough strong people here that we can probably post some ideas; maybe some of them will be new to you.
Author:  Spezi [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
I play online most of the time. I don't play a particular style; what happens, happens. If playing for moyo seems best, I play for moyo; if playing teritorially seems best, I play territorially... Might upload the next game I play. But don't have time for playing right now.
Author:  karaklis [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
Could be that your attitude towards the game is the problem. I would apply my following suggestions, if I had more motivation and pressure to improve my game.. :scratch:

Spezi wrote:
Solving tsumego doesn't seem to imrove my game, too. ... Not looking at the solution, solve the next one after I'm sure I have it right. ... Didn't feel like I improved at all, not even my reading ability. ... When solving problesm I apply what I already know, nothing new.

If this method doesn't help you, try another: Try to solve tsumego, and if you cannot solve it within a short time (a minute or two), look at the answer and learn it by heart, so that you can solve it instantly when you see it next time. Hardwire it. Doing so will probably improve your reading as well.

Spezi wrote:
But reading more advanced tesuji books seem like a waste of time (dictionaries and problem books).

Same advice as above: Learn the tesuji by heart so that you instantly recognize it when you see it.

Spezi wrote:
Replaying professional games doesn't seem to help me.

Don't just replay, but learn it by heart, so that you can lay them out on the board days or weeks later. The best would be commented games of professional players.

Spezi wrote:
And playing games seems pointless, too.

Probably true unless you review them and/or get them reviewed by stronger players.

Spezi wrote:
I don't plan on teaching Go. In my opinion I understand it too little to teach someone.

This is a wrong assumption. You can easily teach others when they are five stones or more weaker than yourself.

Spezi wrote:
Teaching someone who could profit by having me teach him could improve faster by simply playing games and reading the books I told about (one reason I listed them) (in my opinion) (from my experience).

Another wrong assumption. There are players that are stuck at around 7k (like me) who might profit by being taught by 2d players (like you).

:study:
Author:  snorri [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
Spezi wrote:
Don't feel any improvement.


Maybe I'm parsing words too much, but why do you expect to feel improvement? When improvement is slow, maybe it's hard to feel. A 13 year old may still be growing, but may not feel it from day to day. That doesn't mean the kid should say to himself, "eating doesn't seem to make me feel as if I am growing, so I'm just going to stop that." :)

For myself, I know that when I thought I was learning new things, it felt like I should be playing better and sometimes I would. But that feeling is an illusion based on the presumption that go strength is about knowledge, when it's more about conditioning.
Author:  Kirby [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
Bantari wrote:
...

Well, then...
Everyone reaches a level past which we do not improve...


Really? It'd be surprising to me if improvement were impossible at any point.
Author:  Solomon [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
snorri wrote:
Spezi wrote:
Don't feel any improvement.


Maybe I'm parsing words too much, but why do you expect to feel improvement? When improvement is slow, maybe it's hard to feel. A 13 year old may still be growing, but may not feel it from day to day. That doesn't mean the kid should say to himself, "eating doesn't seem to make me feel as if I am growing, so I'm just going to stop that." :)

For myself, I know that when I thought I was learning new things, it felt like I should be playing better and sometimes I would. But that feeling is an illusion based on the presumption that go strength is about knowledge, when it's more about conditioning.
Nonsense, this was how I felt when I was 1k:
Image

Then when I became 1d:
Image
Author:  Spezi [ Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stuck at 2D
snorri wrote:
Spezi wrote:
Don't feel any improvement.


Maybe I'm parsing words too much, but why do you expect to feel improvement? When improvement is slow, maybe it's hard to feel. A 13 year old may still be growing, but may not feel it from day to day. That doesn't mean the kid should say to himself, "eating doesn't seem to make me feel as if I am growing, so I'm just going to stop that." :)

For myself, I know that when I thought I was learning new things, it felt like I should be playing better and sometimes I would. But that feeling is an illusion based on the presumption that go strength is about knowledge, when it's more about conditioning.


You may be right, but not only do I feel no improvement, but I also see none (rank).
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