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Can fast go be good for you?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5550		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Tami [ Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Can fast go be good for you?
Up to now, I thought fast time limits were unhelpful, but I might be starting to change my mind.

Slow games allow the conscious practice of applying newly learned ideas to one's play and reading as deeply as possible, that is quite certain, and must therefore be useful.

But can the same apply to fast games, even full-on blitz games?

Do you find that if you make the conscious effort to play well, with thoughtful strategy and careful reading, the time pressure and speed of play make the experience more intense and focussed? In other words, does the combination of speed and attention induce a flow state in you?
Author:  tchan001 [ Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
It does for me until my games start getting so complicated that I wish I had more time to read out my options better.
Author:  Loons [ Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
I'm cynical that ten second blitz is good for anyone. I have a friend who swears by it and reads as much as he can as fast as he can, but in my experience, games always degenerate into the losing player playing hope-you-choke-on-time-pressure moves, probably after a messy fuseki aimed at throwing your opponent off.


I'm bad at 10-second-blitz. Can you tell?
Author:  judicata [ Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
I prefer slow games, and rarely blitz. But some concepts are learned by repetition, and fast games can be useful for getting that repetition. Of course, people learn in different ways. I learned a lot by playing a mix of fast and slow games as a ddk (though I've always heavily favored slow games).

YMMV.
Author:  hyperpape [ Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
I buy it to this extent: it is possible to play carelessly but slowly, and actually exerting yourself can be done just as easily in a fast game as a slow one.

I've been playing some Arimaa lately (and I'm not good at it, so a grain of salt), but I find that I focus best on the faster games, and let my mind wander when I'm waiting a minute to see the next move.
Author:  Tami [ Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
The thing that got me wondering about it was my experience with a guitar.

Definitely, you should practice new licks and techniques SLOWLY. Violinists and pianists say the same thing on their fora, too.

Yet, at some point you have to bring a piece up to speed, and I find the process of gradually setting a higher tempo on the metronome concentrates my mind and strengthens each skill I practice.

Again, suppose you want to play licks automatically as you play a song. You have to start by playing them slowly and self-consciously; but, at least for me, it's when I begin bringing them up to speed that the learning really kicks in. That is, I make dozens and dozens of errors, but with repeated attempts the lick becomes polished and fluent. You can't get there without bringing up the tempo.

So, in go, my theory is that you should play slow games and fast games. Slow games for self-consciously applying things, and fast (but not insanely fast) games for pushing up the speed and efficiency of your thinking. Just playing (i.e., not putting effort into it), does not count.
Author:  Suji [ Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
Fast games are a way to test multiple things quickly. They could help with repetition, too. I think the best way to improve is by mixing fast games with slow games.
Author:  daal [ Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
I think the question depends a bit on where you are in your go development. Up to a certain point, blitz games offered me practically nothing besides cheap thrills. Mostly games turned into a slugfest and ended when one of us (mostly me) was caught unawares and knocked out. This was at a time when in normal games I was always the one in byo-yomi when my opponent still had half of his time. I didn't enjoy the blitz games much either, because the outcome seemed so random, and often left me with the feeling that my "basic instinct" sucked.

Then at one point I discovered Canadian time, and after watching TMarks games at 1 + 3:00/25 I opened a blitz account and played most of my games with this setting, which allows you to occasionally think more than 10 seconds when you judge the situation to be critical. For a while, I played most of my games on this account, and played tons of them.

In another thread about a year ago, I wrote:

Quote:
For me, the most significant aspect of blitz is that I don't have such an emotional investment in my success, and I think this is having the effect of making my play less cowardly. As a result, I've been playing games that are exciting and interesting instead of plodding and uninspired. This is what is fun for me.

As far as learning goes, having gotten in quite a few games has helped me to appreciate such concepts as aji and thickness, and I've gotten much better at keeping calm under pressure. I think I'm also developing a better eye both for seeing the results of a tradeoff, and for seeing what parts of the board are critical. I believe that all of these things are reflected in my slower games as well.

The caveat was that not thinking long enough became a habit that took quite a while to unlearn. But if you can prevent that, it's a nice opportunity to get in a lot of experience in a short period of time, and to toy a bit with new ideas. In the long run, I think it helped me to relax in regular games, and not to agonize so much over every move. Also, I'm no longer always the first to reach byo-yomi. :)
Author:  Suji [ Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
daal wrote:
The caveat was that not thinking long enough became a habit that took quite a while to unlearn.


This. I'm still trying to unlearn this. It's very hard to unlearn once you learn, but it can be done.
Author:  sol'sbaduk [ Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
I believe that it's good to play both. I play some games at my club that take 3 hours. However, I also play games 45 each no byo-yomi at my club too. It's a lot on your playing style too. You definitely can't neglect reading. Fast games also improves how fast you can read into things. If you're playing somebody who's stronger then you, you most definitely will want to play a longer game, but while playing someone your own strength it's good to try and play a little faster.
Author:  SmoothOper [ Tue May 22, 2012 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
Pushing timings for things like life and death(IE how long does it take you to solve the problems) is good but overall it is better to play better than it is to play faster, because in the context of a game if you play fast games you will be solving problems that don't necessarily relate to the problems that you would normally.. I find that when my strength increases, my rating improves, but then I have to find ways to play faster at the new level, because I start losing on time, until I am comfortable playing at that higher level.
Author:  Jash [ Tue May 22, 2012 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
If i might share my personal opinion on this topic, I believe fast go has absolutely no interest for me at the time being. I believe that to be able to actually benefit from fast go one needs to be a mid-dan at least. In my personal opinion, playing fast go while not having the reading, shape evaluation, directional judgement, and whole board understanding that is necessary to play well is a total waste of time, and a perfect nest to learn bad habits. And as some said before, some players only try to make the situation ultra complex and then push their opponents into making mistakes just for the sake of winning, which for me is against the purpose of playing to enjoy the game and hopefully improving slowly by actively thinking about what next move to play.


sol'sbaduk wrote:
Fast games also improves how fast you can read into things.


For me reading improvement doesn't come from trying to read fast, but rather from the slow reading repetition while taking your time (that's my personal opinion :) )
Author:  shapenaji [ Tue May 22, 2012 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
Jash wrote:
If i might share my personal opinion on this topic, I believe fast go has absolutely no interest for me at the time being. I believe that to be able to actually benefit from fast go one needs to be a mid-dan at least. In my personal opinion, playing fast go while not having the reading, shape evaluation, directional judgement, and whole board understanding that is necessary to play well is a total waste of time, and a perfect nest to learn bad habits. And as some said before, some players only try to make the situation ultra complex and then push their opponents into making mistakes just for the sake of winning, which for me is against the purpose of playing to enjoy the game and hopefully improving slowly by actively thinking about what next move to play.


sol'sbaduk wrote:
Fast games also improves how fast you can read into things.


For me reading improvement doesn't come from trying to read fast, but rather from the slow reading repetition while taking your time (that's my personal opinion :) )


See, I think fast go improves shape awareness better than just about anything else. I don't think it really helps reading. BUT shape awareness improves your ability to see candidate moves, so it's not that your reading gets deeper, but that you're reading better lines in the first place.
Author:  luvgiants916 [ Thu May 24, 2012 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
I like Blitz (10-20 seconds/move) because to me, in the end, Go is a game. When I start taking it too seriously, I'll start hating it. But, I suppose tournament games should have a longer time limit.

FWIW
Author:  Javaness2 [ Thu May 24, 2012 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
Speed of play does little to improve your game, it's depth of review, and analysis, which help that
Author:  daal [ Thu May 24, 2012 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
luvgiants916 wrote:
I like Blitz (10-20 seconds/move) because to me, in the end, Go is a game. When I start taking it too seriously, I'll start hating it. But, I suppose tournament games should have a longer time limit.

FWIW


I also enjoyed playing blitz for a while, but playing slow doesn't mean that it's less of a game, or that you have to take it more seriously. It just means that you have more time to think about your moves. While this does reduce the luck factor in a game, it also adds the fun of making your clever moves less co-incidental.

That said, since you invest less time and thought into a blitz game, your victories and defeats feel less consequential - and although you may not start hating the game, you could end up getting bored with it.
Author:  tchan001 [ Fri May 25, 2012 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
The joy of blitz is to know that the tsumego shape you recognize at a glance from your studies in the past is not recognized by your opponent who is struggling with time.
Author:  mitsun [ Wed May 30, 2012 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
Playing fast go may be entertaining, but in my opinion it is worthless for actually improving. While it gives you opportunities to practice what you know (or think you know) about shapes and tesuji, it trains your bad habits just as much as your good habits.
Author:  Barrauss [ Wed May 30, 2012 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
I think it's worth commenting that the lowest insei play at 30 minutes absolute time. They also play many games on their game days (I believe 12 in one weekend, though I may be wrong). So perhaps it's a general belief by professionals that at lower levels, when learning, longer time doesn't necessarily mean better (though 30 mins absolute each isn't necessarily a short game either).
Author:  snorri [ Wed May 30, 2012 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Can fast go be good for you?
Barrauss wrote:
I think it's worth commenting that the lowest insei play at 30 minutes absolute time. They also play many games on their game days (I believe 12 in one weekend, though I may be wrong). So perhaps it's a general belief by professionals that at lower levels, when learning, longer time doesn't necessarily mean better (though 30 mins absolute each isn't necessarily a short game either).


Yes, it's a sobering thought. I've sometimes thought that playing games with time limits that are any longer than I'm likely to see in tournaments (e.g. 45m + 5x30s) is not productive and that it is odd that there are professional tournaments that are effectively quickplay, but I guess it makes for better television. More than an hour basic time in a serious amateur tournament is starting to look presumptuous in comparison.

Some players complained about the time limits in the Korea Prime Minister's Cup, which uses 30m + 3x30s. But since playing in that is likely one of the highlights of an amateur's go life, it may be time to accept that fast go is here to stay.

If you play blitz online you can always review the games offline later. I often do that. Of course there are reading mistakes that are due to time pressure, but it's also informative to find out where your impulses are taking you. You probably can improve by improving the quality of the first move that comes to mind. At least that's what I'm trying to accomplish when I review my own blitz games. I can't prove that it works from personal experience, but maybe others can.

Just because there is a current trend to shorter limits doesn't mean it's the best way, though. I am in the middle of reading John Fairbairn's e-book "The Life of Shuei" and it's always striking to me how different it must have been in that era. Like the Hoensha rules that encourage low dans and eventually others to finish before bedtime or stay up. (This is for a game that would start in the morning.) Something gives me the impression these players weren't exactly filling their days with blitz.
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