Learn to attack.
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| Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6459 |
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| Author: | Alguien [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
As middlegame goes on, most of my games reach a situation where I'd be about 25 points ahead if all my frameworks became territory. My opponent invariably starts attacking very aggressively and I win or lose depending on how well my frameworks hold on. What I'd like to know is: What should I study to play fuseki and beggining of middlegame in a way that helps me defend against cornered opponents? Also, is that the correct question? Or I should rather study how not to reach that situation at all and start securing territory much sooner. |
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| Author: | Jash [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
I believe the most important thing that you need to defeat those opponents more frequently is better reading. Studying fuseki is also very important to start the game in a balanced way that is easier to manage for you, add to that better reading and you'll be able to evaluate how secure are your points, and also defend you territory from super aggressive invasions =)! |
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| Author: | Alguien [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
Jash wrote: I believe the most important thing that you need to defeat those opponents more frequently is better reading. But the only way I know of learning better reading (other than just playing) is solving go problems, and 98% of it is concerned with life&death, not with avoiding excessive reductions. |
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| Author: | Insane [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
Better reading once gained benefits the entire game. You could also try to improve your middle game fighting skills by: 1. study reduction and invasion techniques. 2. experiment by playing in a style emphasizing fighting instead of frameworks. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
Learn to attack.
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| Author: | Alguien [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
Insane wrote: 1. study reduction and invasion techniques. I'd appreciate any source of information for "reduction and invasion techniques". Insane wrote: 2. experiment by playing in a style emphasizing fighting instead of frameworks. That's exactly what I'd like to learn to do, to avoid the situation altogether, but I don't know how. I don't chose to make frameworks. I play mostly by instinct and my instinct takes me to that situation. Bill Spight wrote: Learn to attack. I try that. However, as my framework is bigger, even if I kill I still lose more than I win. Also, attacking makes the situation more complex, which I feel as bad, when I'm ahead. |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
What everyone else said so far. Which means: study your basics (fundamentals): basic shapes, basic tesuji, basic life-and-death, basic directions, basic joseki, basic strategies... Alguien wrote: I play mostly by instinct... This only works up to a point. Eventually it's all in the details --as Jash and Insane said, it's your reading. As Bill said, learn to attack -- this also means learn to fight. It's all in your basics. Alguien wrote: Also, is that the correct question? It's very difficult to talk about these things in the abstract. Post a game for review.
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| Author: | maproom [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
The phrase "avoiding excessive reductions" shows where you are going wrong. From what you say, these reductions are often successful. This shows that they are not excessive. Your mistake is in thinking that your frameworks deserve to be territory, even though they aren't strong enough. |
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| Author: | Tooveli [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
I'm going to assume that you're talking about positions where you are definitely ahead. (It may be, as others have said, that in some of these cases you're misevaluating - your opponent should be able to reduce your frameworks.) Winning when you're ahead can seem like one of the hardest things to do in go. I think that this is because of a mistaken assumption. I had it for my first 8.5 years playing this game. I've been playing for almost 9. I used to equate I'm ahead with there should be an easy route to victory. When you're behind your objective is clear: make a mess. Surely then, when you're ahead, all you need to do is stop there being a mess. Wrong. Go is hard. Go is very hard. There is never an easy route to victory if your opponent doesn't want there to be one. It is always possible to make a mess. Your objective when you're ahead is to see through that mess and defeat it. When you're ahead and your opponent has "nothing to lose" then they will make the game complicated. The fact that you were ahead means that if you continue to play just as well as your opponent you should come out on top. Your chance to win is greater than fifty percent but it probably won't be easy. When I first realised this I thought it was annoying. Now, it's kind of fun. You make your mess. I will defeat it. |
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| Author: | LocoRon [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
Alguien wrote: Insane wrote: 2. experiment by playing in a style emphasizing fighting instead of frameworks. That's exactly what I'd like to learn to do, to avoid the situation altogether, but I don't know how. I don't chose to make frameworks. I play mostly by instinct and my instinct takes me to that situation. Bill Spight wrote: Learn to attack. I try that. However, as my framework is bigger, even if I kill I still lose more than I win. Also, attacking makes the situation more complex, which I feel as bad, when I'm ahead. One of my absolute favorite teaching methods is to fill the outside border with black stones; white starts, and his only goal is to make a living group. If white can make a living group, he wins, if he can't, black wins. Simple as that. (FYI, white shouldn't be able to live.) Preferably, both players will get to experience both side, at least once.
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| Author: | jts [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
Next time you are behind 25 points, by your reckoning, invade or excessively reduce your opponents framework. See what happens. If you succeed, you've learned something about how to play aggressively; if you fail, you've learned how to defend tenaciously. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
Alguien wrote: As middlegame goes on, most of my games reach a situation where I'd be about 25 points ahead if all my frameworks became territory. My opponent invariably starts attacking very aggressively and I win or lose depending on how well my frameworks hold on. What I'd like to know is: What should I study to play fuseki and beggining of middlegame in a way that helps me defend against cornered opponents? Also, is that the correct question? Or I should rather study how not to reach that situation at all and start securing territory much sooner. OK... Personally I think the questions are all incorrect. Simply put, you can not play Go expecting the game to be over in the fuseki or beginning of the middlegame. There is a reason that it is called the "middle" game, i.e. it is not over yet. Even then, correct questions depend on the situation: Version 1: Your self assessment is correct. Your frameworks "should" turn into territory. So you should study how to profitably attack the unreasonable invasions of your opponents. This requires two things on your side. (Note that if this is actually the case on average then you are much better at fuseki than you are at fighting. Your lack of fighting skill is dragging you down. But this is not likely to be the case, since being good at fuseki normally requires that you are able to comprehend the potential of future close-in fighting. In other words your topic may be mis-named.  )First, choosing the right direction of play, i.e. your opponent does not die but you solidify more territory by attacking from the left rather than the right and chasing them into the center rather than forcing them to make two eyes on the side. This is about overall judgment of the board as a whole and understanding the potential in your positions as well as those of your opponents. If you chase a one-eyed group into the center, how do you do it in a way that gives you an easy invasion of the oppo's largest territory over there on the left side? The first step is looking beyond your supposedly unassailable frameworks to your oppo's areas. Which are too strong to invade? OK, there is no good direction of play toward them. Which are still subject to invasion/reduction. OK, there may be opportunities in that direction. Personally I do not think there is a lot of good, well-organized material for studying this type of issue. YOU have to step up and think about it in your games. Second, playing efficient attacks, i.e. you manage to actually kill them if they give you the opportunity, or you keep the pressure up as long as possible (taking territory/making thickness along the way), without letting them slip away in a profitable fashion. This is about the vital points of shape and how to attack them. There are lots of tsume-go and tesuji materials to study, but it requires considerable effort from your side to apply them "in the wild" as it were. The best lessons come from trying and failing, then trying again. Version 2: Your self assessment is not correct and your frameworks are subject to invasion/attack. (I find this much more likely. My own experience of 30 years of teaching games with various pros in Japan is that we amateurs simply do not see anywhere near the potential of the positions we create on the Go board.) This requires two things: First, choose the right direction of play! Whoa, what the heck!!! Yes, really. Sorry to say but whether we are right or wrong in our dream-like imagining of the future, once our opponent contemptuously slaps down a stone in our face, we have to react! (Sheeessssh, yeah I know, no one explained it quite that way when you first got interested in Go, but nevertheless...) The key to large-scale fighting is always about the potential in the other areas of the board, aka direction of play. If I attack from the left and he lives, how much can I make? If I attack from the top and he lives, how much can I make? These are the real fundamentals of attack and defense. Second, (by now you can guess, right?) play efficient attacks! Even if you are behind, the road to catching up is playing more efficiently than your opponent down the stretch. After all if you are rated the same and your oppo gained an advantage in the opening, you may well be better at middle-game fighting. Think positive and keep attacking (see above). Version 3: Your self assessment is completely wrong, your supposed frameworks are nonsense and your oppo's territory is unassailable. I hate to say it but this is a real possibility for a DGS 5-kyu (sigh!  ) Nevertheless, this situation is relatively easy, go back to basics and study the opening.  Although to be honest if your oppo is equally rated, there ought to be countervailing weaknesses in their play to make up for a superior opening, so you can contemplate just letting all the study slide and out-fighting them in the end. It is probably what I would decide to do while fetching another beer from the fridge. How did we put it when I was young? "F*** em if they can't take a joke!"
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| Author: | EdLee [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Dave, |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Dave, ez4u wrote: Version 1...(Note that if this is actually the case on average then you are much better at fuseki than you are at fighting. I think the opposite: it is very likely to be the case -- basics problems and fighting skills (or lack thereof).Your lack of fighting skill is dragging you down. But this is not likely to be the case, since... But, this is all guesswork without looking at the actual games. Sorry to unveil all (but I was out to dinner and drank a lot of wine tonight  ). I am ready to agree to disagree, but I really do believe that all good assessments of "stones with gaps", aka the early going, depend on the ability to accurately assess the future when the gaps are filled in. I know that I can not do this (or rather that I can "do" it but there are many people who can do it much better). In another thread (off the top of my head I forgot which) someone recently claimed to play some moves at a 9p level (while overall playing much lower). I think this is not true. In my case, I am sure that I never make any move at a 9p level. In other words, every stone any 9p plays is done from such a different/richer understanding of the potential on the board that we might as well be (in fact we are) playing different games. As always YMMV!
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| Author: | Dusk Eagle [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
Since Dave started to talk about direction of play, I thought this would be a pretty good video to post: http://vimeo.com/44171860. The whole video is good to watch, but starting at the 1 hour mark he moves away from talking about the opening and starts talking about attacking. It was really eye-opening to me as a 2d, and the ideas you'll see within should really help you when you're trying to attack your opponent. |
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| Author: | Laman [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
Alguien wrote: I try that. However, as my framework is bigger, even if I kill I still lose more than I win. Also, attacking makes the situation more complex, which I feel as bad, when I'm ahead. as Kato "the Killer" Masao said: "Fighting is hard, but attacking is easy." so, if you want to attack effectively, i believe you should play simple and thick moves and let the opponent to show you his magic. my favourite games are when i build a fortress so big that my opponent has to invade and so tight that he can't
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
Bill Spight wrote: Learn to attack. As usual, Bill hits the nail on the head. When you do become a strong enough fighter, you will regard these invasions as a gift. I recommend Maseo 'Killer' Kato's book "Attack and Kill". |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
Alguien wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Learn to attack. I try that. However, as my framework is bigger, even if I kill I still lose more than I win. Also, attacking makes the situation more complex, which I feel as bad, when I'm ahead. Well, my style for several years was like yours. Except that I attacked. Step 1. I build moyo. Step 2. Opponent invades moyo. Step 3. I attack. Notice I did not say, "Learn how to attack." That is part of it, OC. But you described your opponent at attacking, not yourself. So the first step is to learn to attack. Today you have books about how to attack. If you kill and lose more than you win, you are doing something wrong. (Here is a hint. Attack on a large scale, so that your opponent cannot afford to sacrifice his stones.) As for attacking making things complex, if you make it easy for your opponent to live inside your moyo, you are giving up. It's a balancing act. You do not want to make it easy for your opponent to live, but you do not want to make it easy for him to sacrifice.
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| Author: | jts [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
If you post some of these games, our advice will be much better. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Resisting "nothing to lose" opponents. |
Attack example. This is not an example of a Black invasion which White attacks, but it does show excellent technique. Takagawa rarely went for the kill, but skillfully used attack to make gains. A cool customer.
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