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changes in perspective as you rank up
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Author:  siowy [ Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:02 am ]
Post subject:  changes in perspective as you rank up
i noticed that i look at the game differently as i rank up from 20kyu to ~3kyu.

i wonder if it might be helpful sharing such changes in perspective and mindset.

if i can remember or observe others, i'll share them.

~7kyu
1. i think about both sides making shape as first priority once stones contact


~3kyu
1. i think of stones as being able to move and connect in 2 directions instead of 4 directions. eg. under pressure of contact play, a two space extension formation on the third line can mainly connect to each other and connect to 'earth'(the side of the board), but cannot extend upwards and outwards at the same time.

i think this helps me greatly when looking at groups of loosely connected stones. previously i would feel as if they were all connected, but now i feel confident in playing near them.

2. i think of how to connect my stones and separate opponent's stones to gain strength, not how to gain territory.
Author:  Alguien [ Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: changes in perspective as you rank up
First - I think about life and I see everything as killable.

Second - I decide that trying to kill is useless and that all I need is to grab territory and then destroy all influence with an invasion.

Third - I start thinking that things indeed die, and I decide not to allow so much influence.

Fourth - I decide that all that thinking about influence and territory is crap and that all that matters is which groups are settled, which aren't and what zones are empty.
Author:  Unusedname [ Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: changes in perspective as you rank up
I remember seeing this before and being sure this was all black's territory.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I eventually learned that this was all black's territory as long as I wasn't black.

Now I see a few exploitable points
It took me more time to realize that to actually exploit these points you needed some stones nearby otherwise they weren't actually forcing moves.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . d . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . g . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I also learned about this magical formation recently
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Corner
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . @ . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . O , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This marked stone changed everything.
It's the first side shape I have a good feeling for

I've seen a couple others but I just don't understand them as well.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Corner
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . 1 2 O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Anyways my next step is going to be learning how to put stones in supporting areas in a way that doesn't entice my opponent into protecting these weaknesses.
And right now my plan for that is starting bases nearby and chasing weak groups into an area close to these weaknesses.

The second one seems kind of scary because one wrong move and suddenly the weak group connects and becomes a strong group.
And it seems like I'd need a base nearby anyways so that my support stones aren't just random weak stones.

Idk this is what I've been thinking about recently.
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:40 am ]
Post subject: 
The real eye-opener for me was pro guidance. One of the most important things
I learned, after a few years with pro help, was that perhaps 99% of what I thought
I knew before 5k was wrong. I learned that my basics were a disaster.
I learned that my shapes were a disaster. I was basically clueless.
This realization, that I knew practically nothing about Go, was very important.
Author:  Unusedname [ Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: changes in perspective as you rank up
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . a b . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . @ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This kind of white move has been showing up in a few of my games.

I know when I was weaker I would worry about the safety of my group and defend somewhere around a or b

But now I do something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . 5 7 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 1 3 O 6 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 2 4 . . 8 9 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this is an important mistake by white that's happening in my kyu range.

or maybe i'm the one making a mistake x]

i'll find out eventually
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:27 am ]
Post subject: 
Unusedname, it's nice you're considering other local options.
Depending on the rest of the board, B also has other local choices, for example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . @ d c . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
B may or may not want to play them immediately; again, it depends on the whole board situation.
Author:  Uberdude [ Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: changes in perspective as you rank up
Unusedname wrote:

I know when I was weaker I would worry about the safety of my group and defend somewhere around a or b

But now I do something like this:

I think this is an important mistake by white that's happening in my kyu range.

or maybe i'm the one making a mistake x]


It is not clear to me that your second sequence is better, I think defending at a might be best. That way white is still weak. Your new sequence makes white live in sente in exchange for a wall, but I am not sure I like that trade for black.
Author:  Unusedname [ Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
Unusedname, it's nice you're considering other local options.
Depending on the rest of the board, B also has other local choices, for example:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . @ d c . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
B may or may not want to play them immediately; again, it depends on the whole board situation.


I like c.
but I can't imagine a time when d would be appropriate.

Uberdude wrote:

It is not clear to me that your second sequence is better, I think defending at a might be best. That way white is still weak. Your new sequence makes white live in sente in exchange for a wall, but I am not sure I like that trade for black.


Really? I think this trade is clearly better for black. White might live in sente. but only with 6-10 points and he's mostly sealed off.

I guess I might worry about something like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . X X 3 . X 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O O X 2 . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O 7 5 O 1 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or this

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 X , . X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . 4 X X O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . . O 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


but idk still looks good for black.
Author:  TheBigH [ Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: changes in perspective as you rank up
My changing perspectives:

50k- I keep hearing this "go" game being mentioned. I wonder what it's all about. Maybe I'll quickly google it.

30k- Only five or six different rules? That doesn't sound too hard.

25k- Huh, maybe there's more to this than I thought.

20k- Yes! I just read out a killing sequence eight moves deep! It wasn't even a ladder! I am the greatest genius that ever lived!

15k- Hmm. Outside influence seems vague and overrated to me.

16k (after being trounced by someone good at using it)- ...oh.

15k again- I still don't know anything!!!
Author:  Uberdude [ Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: changes in perspective as you rank up
Unusedname wrote:
Uberdude wrote:

It is not clear to me that your second sequence is better, I think defending at a might be best. That way white is still weak. Your new sequence makes white live in sente in exchange for a wall, but I am not sure I like that trade for black.


Really? I think this trade is clearly better for black. White might live in sente. but only with 6-10 points and he's mostly sealed off.


Yes really. That's probably another change in perspective you will find as you rank up: some things become clearer but other things become less clear as you try to make deeper judgements of positions taking into account more factors. I suspect a major difference in our evaluations is the large negative value I ascribe to white having a weak group.

Let's compare these two positions:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Defence
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X . . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Wall
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . X X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X X O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O O O . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In both diagrams white has sente. In the first his m3 and j2 stones are weak and can be cut and have their base removed by black l2. Black's f3 group is also a bit weak, but much stronger than white's. Black's lower right corner is strong and locally the 3-3 invasion is a ko but with that weak group to the left is unrealistic for now.

In the second j2 and m3 are strong and alive with ~6 points. Black has a wall (but with possible peeps at l5 and o5) and the j4 stone is strong and connected, but its shape is funny due to white j2. f3 is not connected to j4: it can be cut by white h4 or h3. If white cuts black can consider sacrificing and dodging to c3, but also this means if white takes the corner at d2, he is then threatening to cut without black having the option to dodge to the corner and if black answers d2 by connecting on dame at h3 that's rather pathetic. Black's lower right corner is secured so 3-3 will die, but white could still play moves like s5 to reduce it and form a group on the right side.

So a key judgement here is what is the value of black's wall? That's hard to say without seeing the rest of the board. If we give it 2 points for the length of the wall maybe 16? White has 6 so 10 points net for black. In the defence variation white has a weak group; how bad is that? Rob van Zeijst has this QARTS idea about a weak group with no eyes being -20 points, a weak group with space for 1 being about -10. So if we say white has -10 for the weak group in the defence variation that's +10 for black which is the same as the wall. Obivously these numbers are rather hand-wavey but they give an idea of the downside of settling white. We've also not factored in the considerable minus of f3 not being connected to j4 when we make the wall.

So in summary, it is far from clear to me which diagram is better; I would be interested to see what other people think.
Author:  Phoenix [ Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: changes in perspective as you rank up
Uberdude wrote:
So in summary, it is far from clear to me which diagram is better; I would be interested to see what other people think.


I'm not going to make a detailed analysis like yours, but my feeling is that once the first diagram is achieved, a wall can still be built afterwards. If White replies right away, Black has sente again.

What bugs me about going straight for the wall in the second diagram is the loss of potential. Unless I'm going to use that wall right away, with a strong position like that I would leave it as a possibility for later. I might want to make White's group run out like a rabbit instead, who knows? :D

Essentially what you said, Uberdude. First diagram to keep the potential alive and the second if the board is set to make use of it immediately, though in that case I would definitely look harder for a way to do so in sente.
Author:  illluck [ Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: changes in perspective as you rank up
Quote:
So in summary, it is far from clear to me which diagram is better; I would be interested to see what other people think.


To be honest, assuming a mostly empty board elsewhere, I would pick the wall without a second thought. H3 is sort of funny with F3, and I'd be inclined to treat the exchange as favourable for white.

Edit: then again, I tend to leave weak groups all over the board and die horribly :p Perhaps this is why XD
Author:  Annihilist [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: changes in perspective as you rank up
The more you know about the game, the more you realise how much you don't know.
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