Life In 19x19 :: Comparison of Interest in Pro Go by Country

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i will say again. i like both yuta and shinji. they are both strong players. i do enjoy watching their game.

my point is that they get more rating than other pros in korea or china just because they play meijin.
i just reviewed game between mokjinsuk and choi chulhan. very very exciting game.
in my opinion that game is more exciting and worth my time.
but many people miss such exciting game because it is not meijin.

i have seen this crazy idea that 2 day game will give japanese player advantage.
it is simply crazy and rediculous to thing that.
didnt you see that people who are strong in 2day game also win in blitz game?

my point is that they get more rating than other pros in korea or china just because they play meijin.

i just reviewed game between mokjinsuk and choi chulhan. very very exciting game.
in my opinion that game is more exciting and worth my time.

but many people miss such exciting game because it is not meijin.

my point is that they get more rating than other pros in korea or china just because they play meijin....but many people miss such exciting game because it is not meijin.

palapiku wrote:

Magicwand, don't you think the opportunity to have two pros play a really long game - something which just doesn't happen that often apparently - is in itself a good enough reason to be interested in the match, even if the pros aren't the best in the world?

i will say again. i like both yuta and shinji. they are both strong players. i do enjoy watching their game.

my point is that they get more rating than other pros in korea or china just because they play meijin.
i just reviewed game between mokjinsuk and choi chulhan. very very exciting game.
in my opinion that game is more exciting and worth my time.
but many people miss such exciting game because it is not meijin.

Magicwand - I am pretty sure that all pros, Japanese, Chinese and Korean - follow and study these two game matches. You are correct, playing two game matches does not make the Japanese better than their strong Chinese and Korean rivals, but it does produce some very good, deep and less blunder prone go.

You are right, the quicker games of the stronger players in Korea and China are more exciting - but is this better go, or more exciting go because, under quick time limits, players forge into new frontiers without a map?

It seems to me that two very good players, given 9 hours a piece, might produce a game as worthy of study as two great players given three hours a piece.

Can we at least agree that it would be really nice to see what the top Korean and Chinese players would produce in a two day match?

i am sure if japanese player getting 12 hours to think and korean and chinese top players only getting 3 hours to think i will bet my money on korean and chinese players.

Magicwand wrote:

i am sure if japanese player getting 12 hours to think and korean and chinese top players only getting 3 hours to think i will bet my money on korean and chinese players.

Wow. To accuse the japanese of their "arrogance" in the past and then writing this today. Interesting. Do you see some parallels, too?

Anyway, set up such a match and I accept that bet, betting on the japanese.

But I doubt any Chinese or Korean Go pro would be willing to accept these or similar conditions (giving the oponent much more time or any other clear advantage).

if japanese people still hold on to the belief that they are the strongest in 2 day game..

i am sorry for your stupidity.

i have said it and say them again. if you are good at 2 day game then you are also good at 2 hour game.
reason why japanese players can not place well in world championship is because they are weaker than chinese and korean players.
result speaks for itself!!

does 2 day game have less mistakes than 3 hour game?
yes and no!!!
i am sure more time will give them some chance of correct move.
but 3 hours is plenty of time for anybody to play reasonablely good game.
but if you are second class player ...does it really matter how much time you get??

my final point...stop holding on to the belief that 2 day game will give japanese advantage.

Ember: i can give you 1 year to think but you will not be able to beat me. because rank matters. it is not the time but it is strength.

i can give you 1 year to think but you will not be able to beat me. because rank matters. it is not the time but it is strength.

One might distinguish between empirical and qualitative data subject to statistical analysis. I suspect you mean the latter, Kirby.

I say that because I remember a comment Charles Matthews about complex macroendgame a long time ago that's based on examining games when two days per game was the norm in Japan. (http://senseis.xmp.net/?KoreanDominanceDiscussion). That's the kind of comparison that you're likely to find on this subject, not anything that you can do statistics on. Ultimately, I doubt we'll get anything more concrete than one's sense of how games differ, unless go programs reach the level of chess programs.

Kirby, I don't know any precise meaning of "qualitative analysis" but I suspect it's not what I meant. My point was that one might either say, without having examined games, what differences there are between games of various lengths. On the other hand, one might study games involving different time limits and make comparisons about them. This would still require one's judgment, and not be subject to statistical analysis, but it would be empirical, in the sense of being based on observation, not preconceptions (but it would be vulnerable to one's preconceptions confounding the observations).

Btw: your proposed experiment wouldn't work well, because it's possible to think on your opponents' time (this is even more true for professionals). I doubt there's any way around that.

Now, hello, what was the other game Magicwand was so keen on?

Kirby wrote:

However, you're right. If the player with less time can think during their opponent's time, the experiment doesn't work well.

I am not sure if it is possible to set up an experiment that would work, but if it were, I would put more confidence on it than simple observations by somebody that's viewed a few games.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to implement this, now that you bring up the flaw in the experiment.

Ah, you meant one side having more time than the other and not comparing 3-hour and 2-day games. Well if one of the players were in a really fast orbit around earth it may in principle work, but the engineering problems would be huge. Probably easier to invent better AI and use that for quality comparison.

Author:	Kirby [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Magicwand wrote: ... i will say again. i like both yuta and shinji. they are both strong players. i do enjoy watching their game. my point is that they get more rating than other pros in korea or china just because they play meijin. i just reviewed game between mokjinsuk and choi chulhan. very very exciting game. in my opinion that game is more exciting and worth my time. but many people miss such exciting game because it is not meijin. I think that you have a point, Magicwand, but it may simply be an effect of globalization. It's a lot easier for people to know about Japan. Hikaru no Go, for example, is a piece of work that brought many westerners into the go scene. Results from international matches can be one evidence of strength, but to increase global popularity for Korean or Chinese go, I'd say that more advertising focused on an international audience needs to be done.

Author:	Bantari [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Magicwand wrote: i have seen this crazy idea that 2 day game will give japanese player advantage. it is simply crazy and rediculous to thing that. didnt you see that people who are strong in 2day game also win in blitz game? No. But I have seen plenty of strong blitz players who are weak in slow games and vice-versa. Besides, from where I stand (and from where you stand even more) - all pros and their games are worth watching. Dismissing a lifetime of achievement like you do just because there are stronger players is not just highly disrespectful to ALL pros (even the Korean and Chinese ones) but also just plain crazy! Chew on THAT, buster. It also shows disrespect to all non-pro Go players whose games are worth watching and learning from. I really don't get this kind of elitist and narrow attitude. Sorry.

Author:	Bantari [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Magicwand wrote: my point is that they get more rating than other pros in korea or china just because they play meijin. This is a good point. But the solution is not to diss the Japanese, and not to lower the awareness of the Japanese scene, but to try to raise the awareness of the Korean/Chinese scene. It is a sad approach to try to elevate your hero by putting others down. If that's the only way, then its a sad hero... Magicwand wrote: i just reviewed game between mokjinsuk and choi chulhan. very very exciting game. in my opinion that game is more exciting and worth my time. How do you know that? The mejin games we are talking about haven't been played yet!! There might turn out to be every bit as exciting, or more so! Or are you saying Japanese games are NEVER as exciting as Korean games? Good thing not all Koreans think like that, or there would be no Korean pros... Magicwand wrote: but many people miss such exciting game because it is not meijin. Again - raise awareness of Korean games and Go scene rather than try to dismiss everything else. Post the game, invite to analysis, this way you will do us all a service. You're a big boy, you know what to do, yes?

Author:	hyperpape [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Magicwand wrote: my point is that they get more rating than other pros in korea or china just because they play meijin....but many people miss such exciting game because it is not meijin. A good sentiment. Not what you originally said, and no one would have fussed over this.

Author:	tapir [ Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Magicwand wrote: palapiku wrote: Magicwand, don't you think the opportunity to have two pros play a really long game - something which just doesn't happen that often apparently - is in itself a good enough reason to be interested in the match, even if the pros aren't the best in the world? i will say again. i like both yuta and shinji. they are both strong players. i do enjoy watching their game. my point is that they get more rating than other pros in korea or china just because they play meijin. i just reviewed game between mokjinsuk and choi chulhan. very very exciting game. in my opinion that game is more exciting and worth my time. but many people miss such exciting game because it is not meijin. Tell us, how many ressources in english language are available about the chinese and korean scene, as opposed to the japanese. It is just easier to follow for an outsider. Add an historical factor, for most people were exposed to Go as a japanese game (maybe together with some other japanese cultural flavour). We read books about how japanese players resign, how they sit during play, know who had the flu during a title match, watched hikaru no go, ... Add the age-long dominance of japanese go. (It is for a reason that chinese books point out who was the first chinese player to beat japanese 9 dan.) Consider, that most players - myself included - are too weak to enjoy a top players game in its depth (by reading the kifu only) but enjoy more the journalistic approach which tells me when ears are reddening, players coughing and how long white thought about move 212. I.e. we enjoy the story more than the game. Of course there is more interest in reports of a Meijin game then. + But don't be too sure western amateurs study more japanese games than chinese or korean ones. Regards Tapir

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Comparison of Interest in Pro Go by Country http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1365	Page 2 of 3

Author:	Horibe [ Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Magicwand - I am pretty sure that all pros, Japanese, Chinese and Korean - follow and study these two game matches. You are correct, playing two game matches does not make the Japanese better than their strong Chinese and Korean rivals, but it does produce some very good, deep and less blunder prone go. You are right, the quicker games of the stronger players in Korea and China are more exciting - but is this better go, or more exciting go because, under quick time limits, players forge into new frontiers without a map? It seems to me that two very good players, given 9 hours a piece, might produce a game as worthy of study as two great players given three hours a piece. Can we at least agree that it would be really nice to see what the top Korean and Chinese players would produce in a two day match?

Author:	Kirby [ Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Comparison of Interest in Pro Go by Country
This topic was created by request to split apart conversation that was not directly related to the 35th Meijin Match in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1296&p=25668

Author:	Magicwand [ Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Horibe wrote: Magicwand - I am pretty sure that all pros, Japanese, Chinese and Korean - follow and study these two game matches. You are correct, playing two game matches does not make the Japanese better than their strong Chinese and Korean rivals, but it does produce some very good, deep and less blunder prone go. You are right, the quicker games of the stronger players in Korea and China are more exciting - but is this better go, or more exciting go because, under quick time limits, players forge into new frontiers without a map? It seems to me that two very good players, given 9 hours a piece, might produce a game as worthy of study as two great players given three hours a piece. Can we at least agree that it would be really nice to see what the top Korean and Chinese players would produce in a two day match? i am sure if japanese player getting 12 hours to think and korean and chinese top players only getting 3 hours to think i will bet my money on korean and chinese players.

Author:	Ember [ Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Magicwand wrote: i am sure if japanese player getting 12 hours to think and korean and chinese top players only getting 3 hours to think i will bet my money on korean and chinese players. Wow. To accuse the japanese of their "arrogance" in the past and then writing this today. Interesting. Do you see some parallels, too? Anyway, set up such a match and I accept that bet, betting on the japanese. But I doubt any Chinese or Korean Go pro would be willing to accept these or similar conditions (giving the oponent much more time or any other clear advantage).

Author:	Magicwand [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Ember wrote: Magicwand wrote: i am sure if japanese player getting 12 hours to think and korean and chinese top players only getting 3 hours to think i will bet my money on korean and chinese players. Wow. To accuse the japanese of their "arrogance" in the past and then writing this today. Interesting. Do you see some parallels, too? Anyway, set up such a match and I accept that bet, betting on the japanese. But I doubt any Chinese or Korean Go pro would be willing to accept these or similar conditions (giving the oponent much more time or any other clear advantage). if japanese people still hold on to the belief that they are the strongest in 2 day game..i am sorry for your stupidity. i have said it and say them again. if you are good at 2 day game then you are also good at 2 hour game. reason why japanese players can not place well in world championship is because they are weaker than chinese and korean players. result speaks for itself!! does 2 day game have less mistakes than 3 hour game? yes and no!!! i am sure more time will give them some chance of correct move. but 3 hours is plenty of time for anybody to play reasonablely good game. but if you are second class player ...does it really matter how much time you get?? my final point...stop holding on to the belief that 2 day game will give japanese advantage. Ember: i can give you 1 year to think but you will not be able to beat me. because rank matters. it is not the time but it is strength.

Author:	Ember [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Magicwand wrote: if japanese people still hold on to the belief that they are the strongest in 2 day game.. Who said that? Magicwand wrote: i am sorry for your stupidity. What good will it do to insult me if you don't even know me? I don't think you understand the point why I'm interested in japanese Go and not that much in other country's Go that much at all. You also don't seem to try to bother understanding my point, either. So to make it clear in one sentence: For me, it is about FUN. I enjoy them more. You want to enjoy the games of (what you say) are the BEST (and NO, I don't want to say with that, that japanese are best. I'm realistic. Just to make sure you don't misunderstand me AGAIN or in case you have fun twisting my comments). Magicwand wrote: i have said it and say them again. if you are good at 2 day game then you are also good at 2 hour game. reason why japanese players can not place well in world championship is because they are weaker than chinese and korean players. result speaks for itself!! I never said that japanese were stronger or as strong as the others. What I have problems to understand is that in your opinion the japanese players are "second class". This is not true. As was already pointed out before (I think topazg posted it), e. g. the game between Iyama and Gu in the Super-Meijin-Tournament was definitely NOT one-sided. I'm not able to see the games on Tygem oder WBaduk, but I was told that the fans went this way and that way in saying who would win the game. And I do not believe that this is a "odd-man-out"-game. There is a difference, yes, but not such a big one as you keep proclaiming. What bothers me is this "all japanese are bad"-thinking of yours. Of course, this is ok for you, but please don't try to sell your opinion as the Allmighty's truth. It sounds exactly like that. Magicwand wrote: does 2 day game have less mistakes than 3 hour game? yes and no!!! i am sure more time will give them some chance of correct move. but 3 hours is plenty of time for anybody to play reasonablely good game. but if you are second class player ...does it really matter how much time you get?? my final point...stop holding on to the belief that 2 day game will give japanese advantage. I do think it matters how much time you get for a match. For me, it is a sign of quality (I know, again we disagree there). And then: I'm no person who wants to be told what to think and as I don't know you and don't understand you (even though I tried) I will stick to my beliefs. I don't care if they are true in your eyes, I will stick to them unless I have reason to change them. I honestly say that to me, you don't make that much reason with your "wild fury" against japanese Go. If you want people to recognize more of the games you think are worth watching: post them. It is a benefit for all of us and maybe a step in a direction in which we will get more info from all asian go nations. This would be great! EDIT: And it would be exactly the reason to all this problem of yours that the "wrong" games get more attention than the "right" ones. But there has to be done something about this problem or the situation won't change. Just sitting here and complaining / arguing about or discussing the fact will not get us anywhere... Magicwand wrote: Ember: i can give you 1 year to think but you will not be able to beat me. because rank matters. it is not the time but it is strength. This illustrates pretty well for me, how big a difference you think is between J and CK. But as said above: I disagree. I don't think we will ever come to an agreement.. Right now, I also don't have the energy and the nerves to discuss this topic with you further, so I don't think I will be posting in this thread again - as in my eyes everything is said. I just want to enjoy Go - just like everybody else here - and I have my views on and preferences of what I like. Just as you, just as everybody. That doesn't have to do with intelligence or anything like that.

Author:	karaklis [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Magicwand wrote: i can give you 1 year to think but you will not be able to beat me. because rank matters. it is not the time but it is strength. I think if the difference of strength is less than 3 handi stones, then time would matter, because the level of knowledge of both players is similar. But then the question is, how would time effect the play? If you give a DDK 3 or 6 hours, it wouldn't make any difference, but for a high amateur dan or a professional player it would.

Author:	Kirby [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Comparison of Interest in Pro Go by Country
I would guess that more thinking time does not ALWAYS imply better moves. It's possible that that additional time could yield diminishing returns in terms of move quality. It's also possible that "over-thinking" can get you into trouble. Of course, we don't really know and can only speculate, because there's not much empirical data when it comes to players playing against one another with different starting times on their clocks. It'd be interesting to take maybe 200 pros and match them up against one another in a round robin tournament, letting one player have 2 days and the other have 3 hours. At this point we don't have much data like that, so we are all kind of speculating.

Author:	hyperpape [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Comparison of Interest in Pro Go by Country
One might distinguish between empirical and qualitative data subject to statistical analysis. I suspect you mean the latter, Kirby. I say that because I remember a comment Charles Matthews about complex macroendgame a long time ago that's based on examining games when two days per game was the norm in Japan. (http://senseis.xmp.net/?KoreanDominanceDiscussion). That's the kind of comparison that you're likely to find on this subject, not anything that you can do statistics on. Ultimately, I doubt we'll get anything more concrete than one's sense of how games differ, unless go programs reach the level of chess programs.

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Author:	Kirby [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Comparison of Interest in Pro Go by Country
hyperpape wrote: One might distinguish between empirical and qualitative data subject to statistical analysis. I suspect you mean the latter, Kirby. I say that because I remember a comment Charles Matthews about complex macroendgame a long time ago that's based on examining games when two days per game was the norm in Japan. (http://senseis.xmp.net/?KoreanDominanceDiscussion). That's the kind of comparison that you're likely to find on this subject, not anything that you can do statistics on. Ultimately, I doubt we'll get anything more concrete than one's sense of how games differ, unless go programs reach the level of chess programs. Do you mean qualitative vs. quantitative analysis? What I meant when I said empirical was to make a hypothesis on whether 2 days of time yielded superior results than 3 hours of time, then have several games using the said time constraints to test the hypothesis. Edit: As for your link, it seems to be mostly speculation to me. I think it would be more interesting to actually test the theories by holding actual games.

Author:	hyperpape [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Comparison of Interest in Pro Go by Country
Kirby, I don't know any precise meaning of "qualitative analysis" but I suspect it's not what I meant. My point was that one might either say, without having examined games, what differences there are between games of various lengths. On the other hand, one might study games involving different time limits and make comparisons about them. This would still require one's judgment, and not be subject to statistical analysis, but it would be empirical, in the sense of being based on observation, not preconceptions (but it would be vulnerable to one's preconceptions confounding the observations). Btw: your proposed experiment wouldn't work well, because it's possible to think on your opponents' time (this is even more true for professionals). I doubt there's any way around that.

Author:	Vesa [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Comparison of Interest in Pro Go by Country
OK, I'll bite too: Wikipedia says: Meijin (名人), literally translated, means "Brilliant Man." It is the name of the second most prestigious Japanese Go Tournament. It also refers to a traditional Japanese title given to the strongest player of the day during the Edo period. Now, hello, what was the other game Magicwand was so keen on? Cheers, Vesa

Author:	Kirby [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Comparison of Interest in Pro Go by Country
hyperpape wrote: Kirby, I don't know any precise meaning of "qualitative analysis" but I suspect it's not what I meant. My point was that one might either say, without having examined games, what differences there are between games of various lengths. On the other hand, one might study games involving different time limits and make comparisons about them. This would still require one's judgment, and not be subject to statistical analysis, but it would be empirical, in the sense of being based on observation, not preconceptions (but it would be vulnerable to one's preconceptions confounding the observations). Yes, I think that it is better to look at the data more to make a better conclusion. It's still not really rigorous, and kind of subject to one's opinion. For example, if I have a preconceived biased toward longer games, it is easier for me to find aspects of longer games that are of better quality. hyperpape wrote: Btw: your proposed experiment wouldn't work well, because it's possible to think on your opponents' time (this is even more true for professionals). I doubt there's any way around that. That's true. I overlooked that detail. The person with less time would still be at a disadvantage since they are one ply behind their opponent, so you would still get some information. However, you're right. If the player with less time can think during their opponent's time, the experiment doesn't work well. I am not sure if it is possible to set up an experiment that would work, but if it were, I would put more confidence on it than simple observations by somebody that's viewed a few games. Unfortunately, I don't know how to implement this, now that you bring up the flaw in the experiment.

Author:	tj86430 [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Comparison of Interest in Pro Go by Country
Vesa wrote: Now, hello, what was the other game Magicwand was so keen on? I'd guess anything with Korean players.

Author:	Kirby [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Comparison of Interest in Pro Go by Country
Helel wrote: Kirby wrote: However, you're right. If the player with less time can think during their opponent's time, the experiment doesn't work well. I am not sure if it is possible to set up an experiment that would work, but if it were, I would put more confidence on it than simple observations by somebody that's viewed a few games. Unfortunately, I don't know how to implement this, now that you bring up the flaw in the experiment. Ah, you meant one side having more time than the other and not comparing 3-hour and 2-day games. Well if one of the players were in a really fast orbit around earth it may in principle work, but the engineering problems would be huge. Probably easier to invent better AI and use that for quality comparison. Good point. Although, computers may have ability that scales differently with time than humans do. However, I have no better test to provide. Another interesting point is how we define "quality". It may be possible that it's the case that a game that's played under faster time constraints has more mistakes (though this has not been proven). But it is debatable whether those mistakes take away from the quality of the game. In theory, given enough time (maybe a few lifetimes!), somebody could read out the optimal result of the game of go from move 1. Playing optimally can certainly be seen as "quality play" by many standards. But some might find "quality" in the ability to come up with a good result under fast time constraints. For example, some people used to find Scott Flansburg (once deemed as the "fastest human calculator") to be quite amazing. You could give him a complex math problem, and he could spit out the correct answer very quickly. Let's say he made mistakes 10% of the time. It's still an amazing that he can compute things in his head so quickly and accurately. Now take Bob, the average citizen that's had a high school education in math. Let's give him 5 hours to come up with the solution to 5863*23121 in his head, while we give Scott Flansburg only 20 seconds... Who cares if Bob can get the right answer in 5 hours? Anybody can do it given enough time. But it's really amazing that Scott Flansburg can get the right answer almost all of the time with such speed. The speed brings about awe more than the fact that the problem is solvable. --- I am not saying that there is not merit to slow games, and certainly they require unique skills such as patience and stability of mind. But some people find both fast games and slow games impressive. Maybe somebody playing a fast game makes a mistake once in awhile. But people playing slow games do, too. We don't know for sure that fast games have less mistakes, but even if they do, look at how impressively they can perform and how quickly they can think!