Hey, a win for Yamashita

More constructively, what do people know about Min Sangyoun? Is he a yeonguseng?

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Occupy Babel!

You mix the tournaments it was Yamashito Keigo and Hane Naoki in the Samsung Cup afaik, when the tournament started both were title holders, most other top players obviously don't contend that reserved places, and don't play in the preliminaries, The third one was Murakawe Daisuke who qualified through the preliminaries, he is doing well in Japan as well.

Min Sang-yeon 閔詳然 was a winner of the Ing Goe Youth World Championship in 2007. He's an insei, aged 15, I think. He's a year behind Na Hyeon who made a similar splash in the BC Card Cup last amd made pro this year.

The fact you don't understand them doesn't mean they don't have a rational justification.


The point is, you cannot say if someone is acting irrational or not, if you don't know all of their experiences and feelings. Let's say you had a murdered family member. It might be reasonable that, due to this, you act differently toward others. People that don't know your situation might find you rude. But if they know how you've come to form your opinions, they might understand you - and may even agree with statements they might otherwise find irrational.

So I think the solution is just discussion to gather more information on the matter.

With these kinds of things, nobody is "right". You can't call somebody that you disagree with to have baseless claims - maybe you just don't understand their base.

So I think it's more productive to simply discuss without accusing others to have irrational or groundless opinions.

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be immersed

What on earth do you mean? Can I reasonably hold the opinion that Yuki Satoshi is the best professional in the world? Or if that doesn't offend your sense of reality enough, that I'm the best go player alive? Or even that I'm better than Magicwand?

Of course you don't believe that. You would judge the latter two opinions as obviously unreasonable, and not ask what my perspective is (and God help you if you don't make those judgments).

So do you just mean that when it comes to top professionals, it becomes too hard to decide, so that any opinion is reasonable? If so, that's a very silly inference. If it's impossible to say who's strongest, then that makes Magicwand just as unreasonable--he would be overstepping his bounds by saying that Japanese players are weak. Everything he says depends on there being true and obvious answers to the question "who is the strongest". He presumes that people who have (certain) different opinions are unreasonable just as much as I do.

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Occupy Babel!

Richard Nixon was known to hate Minnesotans. Her 1972 trip to China was in part designed to isolate Minnesota from the rest of the world. It didn't work of course. Nevertheless, as a Minnesotan, I found her actions to be reprehensible and didn't vote for her in the 1976 Presidential election as a result. Rather, I voted for Dwight D. Eisenhower and sure enough when he was elected our 45th President, he repealed the 1973 Minnesota you suck/China Act. It was a significant moment in my life. One I will remember until the day I die.

As a result, I've never voted for a Republican again. I've always felt that Eisenhower was the most honorable Democrat this country ever produced. Was Nixon a closet heterosexual? Of course she was! I mean just consider Pat or even Checkers. I've owned Cocker Spaniels and I can tell you from personal experience, they're evil. This is just my opinion but I feel strongly that my beliefs about Richard Nixon, Minnesotans, Republicans, and Cocker Spaniels are unassailable.

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burn wood, drink water

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"This is a game that rewards patience and balance. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought."
-Jonas Skarssen

This would be reason enough to impeach!

Did anyone else notice how China was thoroughly smashed this last round? Every big name lost! It is a good thing that I did not gamble on this tournament, because I would have lost my shirt.

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I am Tartuffe from GoDiscussions.com

Are there people betting on Go events? Where?

I just meant that I would have expected wins from Gu Li, Chen Yaoye, and perhaps Chang Hao. I have set up brackets with some other Go players, but the winner got nothing but bragging rights.

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I am Tartuffe from GoDiscussions.com

I think there's an important distinction to be made between agreeing with somebody's comment, and understanding that they might have their own reasons for making a comment.

If you say that you are the best go player in the world, I probably don't agree. But it is still possible that you know something that I don't. Maybe you have some hidden talent and are just pretending to be 3k. That's entirely possible.

But I don't have the information that you have.

So with the information that I have available to me, I can make a decision on what I think is correct. However, the set of information that another person has is a different set of information. And they might draw different conclusions with that information.

---

Here's another example:
I have no idea what "Quazary Candy" is. I've never heard of it before. One day, somebody shows me a package of "Quazary Candy". I open it up, and there's a bunch of blue pieces that look like M&Ms. They are all very sweet. I kind of like the candy, so I ask for some more. They give me 2000 packages. I eat them all. All of the bags have sweet blue pieces, which look like M&Ms.

Then Bob comes along and tells me, hey, have you ever had "Quazary Candy"? Quazary Candy is some of the sourest candy that you can imagine. When you open the package, they look like red triangles.

Now, at this point, I've had Quazary Candy before, so I think to myself, "This guy doesn't know what he's talking about. He's talking nonsense. I've eaten Quazary Candy for the past two years, and I've had over 1000 packages, and not once did I have a sour piece of candy. He's just some stupid guy that doesn't know what he's talking about.".

Now suppose that Quazary Candy actually comes in two flavors: sweet and sour. One is red, and one is blue. Let's say that Bob has only had the sour kind, and has never had the sweet kind.

From Bob's perspective, the only Quazary Candy that he has ever experienced was red and sour. Therefore, he infers that, as a rule, Quazary Candy is red and sour. From your perspective, the candy is sweet and blue. The only experience that you've had tells you that it's sweet and blue.

It could be just coincidence that you both have distinct sets of data. But both of you have rationally made conclusions about Quazary Candy, based on the information that you have available to you.

And you both think that the other is being irrational.

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***Nobody is "right" with these types of statements. We only have some data points, which we can use to draw our own conclusions. Depending on the data that you have, different conclusions may be drawn.

Since you can only see your own data, you have no idea if the other person's decision process is rational. In order to accurately determine this, you also need to see the axioms that they use to draw their conclusions. But this is not possible.

The best alternative is to share with one another what you know. If you tell Bob about the sweet candy, and he tells you about the sour candy, you both might learn something.

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be immersed

Again, you can think this. I cannot tell with certain if your decision process is rational.

I may not agree with you, however.

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be immersed

Gu Li got a second chance and beat our favorite amateur Min today.

Otherwise I'm (again) flabbergasted by the deterioration of this discussion chain.

Cheers,
Vesa

More about Min vs Hane game:
http://9-dan.com/?id=2&cup_id=4&new_id=57
I added some notes in fuseki

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Go lessons: http://breakfast.go4go.net/
Russian Go news: https://vk.com/go_secrets/

Fun facts: 50% of the women made it to the 2nd tournament, as did 50% of the men. (Yay for small numbers). The Japanese player who deserved his spot didn't make the 2nd tournament, while one who didn't deserve it did make it through.

As for the old folks, I got nothing. They're awful.

*tongue firmly in cheek for this, and only this, post*

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Occupy Babel!

Your global scepticism is an interesting position Kirby, but why doesn't it extend to doubting whether I actually said that Magicwand was unreasonable? I mean...we could just have different data about what I said.

You may think I'm being snarky, but I'm having a hard time distinguishing your position from saying "nothing can ever be known, therefore we should never say anything." And saying you're only talking about what is reasonable, not what we should agree with doesn't help. In general, unless certain inferences are reasonable, and others aren't, there is no point in discussion. Otherwise, when I say "if p then q, and p, but not q" you can't jump in and say "that's unreasonable."

In this case, Magicwand and I have roughly the same data: we have tournament records aplenty--if one of us doesn't know the relevant results, it's our own responsibility for not having looked them up. It's not like Cho U had a 20 game losing streak that I'm ignorant of but Magicwand knows about (or vice versa).

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Occupy Babel!

Mainly, I'm just commenting on this part that you said:


Because you cannot really know what his views are based upon.

And sure, it may be the case that one or both of you aren't taking the full picture into account. But your views are both formed by the information that you have taken into account, which is available to you.



This is not necessarily the case. Opinions can be formed from things other than games, too. It could be that a person has negative views toward Japanese people in general due to other factors. This is what I was saying about the rough history that has happened between Japan and other Asian countries. I don't want to speak for Magicwand, because I don't know his situation.

However, a person's feeling about Japanese people could extend to issues outside of go - and that doesn't mean that the views are "not based on anything in particular".

Also, a person with such views may also not be taking the full picture into account, but they surely came up with their opinion for some reason.

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be immersed

thank you for your comment on the game.
so basically it was a bad game for hane and Min capitalizing on is mistake.
still impressive for an amature.

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

I think you can think of it if somebody only says "q", without saying their stance on "p". If the statement "if p then q" is a logical conclusion, and somebody doesn't say anything about "p" and simply says "q", it's hard to know if "q" is true without knowing their stance on "p".

So if they just say "q", and you know that "if p then q" and "if not p then not q" are both true, you could jump in and say, "I don't think that q is true, because of not p".

But maybe they don't agree with "not p" because of some other factor, and really think that "p".

So basically, it could be that you are both being logical, but your underlying premises are different. It is hard to know with any certainty whether somebody is being illogical, or if their premises are simply different than yours.

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be immersed

we are getting further and further from the "Open Samsung Thread", but i don't mind

Kirby: aren't hyperpape's and at first HermanHiddema's opinions on Magicwand just as reasonable (or reasoned...?) as Magicwand's opinions on pretty much everything?

it is not that i wouldn't like magicwand, i usually enjoy his posts (although i often cannot agree with them )

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Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.

As Magicwand said, thank you for posting this. It serves as a good reminder of the risks of making weak groups when you already have weak groups nearby. I need to work on remembering that, anyways.

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Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].