On the basis of numbers alone, the Koreans stand a good chance of winning the title. They have seven seeds (Yi Se-tol, Ch'oe Ch'eol-han, Pak Yeong-hun, Pak Cheong-hwan, Heo Yeong-ho, Weon Seong-chin and Kim Chi-seok). The sponsors also gave Yi Ch'ang-ho a wild card even though he lost in the preliminaries, and of course several other Koreans came through via the preliminaries.

For reference, the Chinese seeds were Gu Li, Kong Jie and Piao Wenyao. Japan had just Yuki and Sakai.

But, if I may, I will muse a little on seeding. It may be more important than weight of numbers. Being seeded makes a big reduction in the number of games required. There seems to be increasing awareness that the sheer number of games is putting a strain on players, especially the older ones, and this is closely tied to the shortening of time limits.

Japanese players did a lot of soul searching when they began to fall behind the rest of the go world. Various explanations were proferred, the favourite ones being the self-serving one that Japanese events paid better so there was little incentive to play overseas and the increasingly shortened time limits.

The time limit theory dominated for a while and Japanese time limits began to be cut. To be sure, there were other reasons in the mix, but there was much talk of the "international standard" of 3 hours so there was clearly a focus there. However, the goal posts were moved repeatedly as time limits were shortened even further in international events. So, even after practising at 3 hours, the Japanese were no nearer catching up. They did, however, refine their thinking about the problems they faced: they began to wonder whether the the faster limits required a change of style - but that would meet much more resistance than just making the playing day shorter. This appears to me to be the current state of thinking among pros in Japan.

In Korea, however, shorter time limits produced a different reaction. It led to a sharp rise in the number of teenagers winning games, which in turn led to a crisis for older players as their income dried up rapidly. Many older pros railed against Mickey Mouse limits, initially citing arguments such as a deterioration in the quality of play, but they were really voicing their concerns about their finances. Unlike in Japan, senior pros in Korea generally have no cushion (such as seeding in many events). But the dominance of sponsors seeking tv coverage and the availability of superfast telecoms in Korea meant that the frantic new style of play was unlikely to be abandoned. There have been some attempts to assuage the senior pros, but there is still tension. The time-limit issue seems more alive there than in Japan.

Recently, however, there seems to be a hardening of the view in Korea that the real problem is not short time limits per se, but too many games. At no time, as far as I can tell, has there ever been a serious suggestion that senior players see less than young players in fast games. If anything, they may be able to see more under ideal conditions. I have never heard, either, of a suggestion (as in Japan) that a different style of play is required in Korea to cope with fast games. It seems that the seniors' gripe has always been about the pressure of too many games. In other words, it appears that e.g. four games at half an hour each are much more stressful than one game at six hours. Prima facie, that seems like a tenable view, and one that is reinforced now by younger players complaining about the pressure. The not-quite-so-young-now such as Yi Ch'ang-ho and Yi Se-tol have certainly complained about pressure and its effect on their health, but it seems also that more than a few young players who burst on the scene like shooting stars have now burnt out, at least temporarily.

In the present event, Yi Ch'ang-ho had voiced concern about accepting his wild-card status. He felt it was putting him under even more pressure, and he apparently sought the advice of several other pros before accepting it. Presumably the extra pressure is to so with having to perform well to meet the sponsor's expectations. We amateurs probably have little conception of this pressure, but we can observe that in the days of Go Seigen's ten-game matches, recovery for a whole month between games was considered ideal, and in many cases the players forwent other events between games.

If the pressure of too many games is real, it is automatically more of a problem for the successful players than the duffers in a system that is still dominated by knockout tournaments. I imagine that the mini leagues now appearing in Korean tournaments, as in the Samsung, are one way of reducing the pressure (i.e. a loss need not be fatal). Seeding, of course, is an even better method. Assuming that all these developments are genuinely intertwined, the progress of the current Samsung event is interesting not just for who wins but for how go organisation may evolve in future.

BTW China is something of a halfway house between Japan and Korea. Events are generally shorter now, but not to the extremes seen in Korea, and these are generally flourishing for the same reasons as in Korea (tv and the internet). Senior players seem to lose out in the events that have many games (i.e. knockouts with many preliminaries) but where they have cosy niches, as in the weekly Weiqi League where a loss is not fatal, they seem to do well enough. In any case, they have a cushion as good as, or even better than, the senior pros have in Japan in that there are many posts as trainers, coaches, commentators, etc. Perhaps because of this balance, as far as I can detect there is not much anguished discussion about shorter time limits in China.

This is a very important piece of info. Thank you very much for it, Mr. Fairbairn

Li Zhe defeated Piao Wenyao by resign.
Kim Jiseok defeated Kang Dongyun by resign.
Sun Li defeated Jiang Zhujiu by resign.
Li Xuanhao defeated Yuki Satoshi by resign.
Chen Yaoe defeated Park Junghwan by resign.
Kim Junghyun defeated Lee Sedol by resign.
Heo Youngho defeated Park Jieun by resign.
Guo Wenchao defeated Song Ronghui by resign.
Park Younghun defeated Sakai Hideyuki by resign.
Na Hyun defeated Kim Dongho by resign.
Kong Jie defeated Peng Liyao by resign.
Jeon Youngkyu defeated Baek Sungho by resign.
Kang Sungmin defeated Choe Chulhan by resign.
Gu Li defeated Lee Youngku by 1.5.
Won Sungjin defeated Wang Tao by resign.
Tan Xiao defeated Lee Changho by resign.

Anyone who had 2 wins advances to next round.
Anyone with 1 win and 1 loss will face each other and winner will advances to next round.
Anyone with 2 losses will be out of tournament.

This is double elimination round.

Lee Changho and Sedol both lost to young guns

Yuki has a really bad record against young Chinese pros, doesn't he?

I hope China Weiqi league extend to NE Asia Baduk/Go/Weiqi league, and cut a few commercial cups but give more money award. It will help young players and encourage top players to pay more attention into cup competitions.

more money to top few???
that is not an answer to the problem.
more chances mean that money will be distributed evenly to more players which is better.

_________________
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson

League ensure dozens of players have a good life, this is your said distribute evenly. The biggest beneficiary of league is hopeful young players, league gives them enough chance to improve.
I mean cut a few commercial cups, then increase money award of the remaining ones. Some top players strategical give up some cups now.

Lee Sedol defeated Jeon Youngkyu by resign.
Chen Yaoe defeated Piao Wenyao by resign.
Peng Liyao defeated Kang Sungmin by resign.
Lee Changho defeated Sun Li by resign.
Li Xuanhao defeated Wang Tao by 1.5.
Guo Wenchao defeated Kang Dongyun by resign.
Lee Youngku defeated Heo Youngho by resign.
Na Hyun defeated Sakai Hideyuki by .5.

Winner advances to 2nd round.

http://igokisen.web.fc2.com/wr/sc.html


2nd round will be held 10/4/11-10/5/11.
Semi final - 10/31/11, 11/2/11 and 11/3/11
Final - 12/5/11 - 12/7/11

See you in October.

After finishing 1st round, winners draw seating for 2nd round.

2nd round:



Lee Changho vs Gu Li
Park Younghun vs Guo Wenchao
Lee Youngkku vs Tan Xiao
Kim Junghyun vs Chen Yaoe
Lee SeDol vs Kong Jie
Won Sungjin vs Li Xuanhao
Kim Jiseok vs Li Zhe
Na Hyun vs Peng Liyao

Quite interesting how each match-up is Korea v.s. China.

I think whoever wins the Kim Jiseok - Li Zhe match will win the whole thing.

My heart wants Na Hyun to win! A 1P in such a big tournament? That only happens in Anime! Go go Na Hyun!

Or to Han Sanghoon.

Thanks. I was trying to remember his name for a while.

Round of 16 started.

Lee Changho vs Gu Li
Park Younghun vs Guo Wenchao
Lee Youngkku vs Tan Xiao
Kim Junghyun vs Chen Yaoe
Lee SeDol vs Kong Jie
Won Sungjin vs Li Xuanhao
Kim Jiseok vs Li Zhe
Na Hyun vs Peng Liyao

How did they get 8 Koreans playing 8 Chinese? A sponsor's fix? This smells.

The round of 32 is done as a double elimination with players in pods of 4, after which players are placed in a 16 player bracket. I thought that the bracket is pre-determined so it has to be filled after the round of 32, and that it's pretty common for sponsors to avoid placing players from the same country against each other in these situations. But you generally know more about these tournaments than I do, so I'll turn the question around: what do you think smells about the situation?

_________________
Occupy Babel!

It's common to avoid certain match-ups early in tournaments - not just same nationality, but also blood-related players, and Nihon Ki-in/Kansai Ki-in, etc. This is usually not for presentational reasons but to avoid collusion.

But late in the event, with fewer bodies, it is more dubious. It becomes presentational and/or some fans are cheated. The event should hope to find the best player against any opposition. Go eugenics is not the way to do that. Imagine if the last 16 had evolved into 7 Koreans, 8 Chinese and 1 supposedly weak Japanese. If the draw is fixed, all those players not drawn against the Japanese would probably feel aggrieved. I think fans would blench, too. If the sponsors want a Korea-China match they can organise that instead.

If the idea is to try to guarantee a certain proportion of the prize money staying with Korean players, that can be solved with higher domestic fees. But foreign players already have a tougher time in many events given that the number of places reserved for domestic players is usually high. The balancing factor is that each country does it. If draw-fixing becomes accepted in one international event, you can be sure that other countries who feel hard done by will follow suit, and the whole of international go becomes tainted.

It may be chance the draw turned out this way, but as that is so unlikely, I'd expect a statement. Anyone seen one?

(Just in case anyone is not familiar with the names: it's not a case of getting 16 players of whom 8 are Korean and 8 Chinese, which is fine; it's a case of eight games featuring a Korean versus a Chinese).

Anything is feasible if you believe in it enough. Even if the draw is fixed (which is speculation), intended to make matches that are diverse by country, is that so bad?

Even if the event is to "find the best player", you've stated that events sometimes avoid pairing people from the same country, even to avoid collusion.

The only real distinction that you point out here is that you feel that the current pairing seems to be more "presentational". Where is the concrete difference between a normal event where pairings are made splitting up those by country, and the speculation that there is some sort of "smelly play" going on here?

_________________
be immersed

Thinking about it, I would not feel comfortable if matches were fixed by hand, but I would be comfortable with an automated procedure to maximize inter-country play.

I don't quite see how that would disadvantage foreign players if the average strength is equal (this seems to be roughly true for China/Korea).

_________________
Occupy Babel!

I know the Samsung is Korean and that brings out a certain protectiveness in you, but objections to my objection seem so daft that I'm not prepared to say any more, except to suggest you look forward to the 100 metres in the London 2012 Oylympics in which all the balck guys from Jamaica etc are put in one semi-final heat and all the white guys from another, just so we can have rainbow diversity in the final.

(I don't mind being an Aunt Sally, but don't object if I throw coconuts back)