Life In 19x19 :: European Pro Privileges

Presumably they may play in certain tournaments (and so have access to their prizes) in that others may not play. Presumably they get support or allowances for teaching or support for publishing that other teachers or publishers do not get.

The only European who is a real "qualified" pro is Taranu( and Hans Pietsch, RIP), the others are so called "political" pros who could not pass the exam but were awarded pro status for their efforts/to support european go.

What special privileges do other Europeans with pro status get? For example Dinerchtein, Shikshina, Taranu? These qualified for pro status through the Asian go associations but they seem to work/live in Europe and, as far as I can see, earn most of their living from teaching rather than playing in Korean or Japanese tournaments.

Speak up, pros!
...
Instead they prefer to act like mountebanks peddling the three-card trick on the pavement, hoping that some sucker will walk by. Totally unprofessional.

Speak up, pros!
...
It therefore stands to reason that, until a blue moon comes along, all European (or American) pros will have to be teachers. In that light, their almost total lack of engagement with their potential clientele baffles me. L19 offers them maybe the best chance to engage.

Instead they prefer to act like mountebanks peddling the three-card trick on the pavement, hoping that some sucker will walk by. Totally unprofessional.

It should be ok for professional or high-dan players to advertise their lessons, books or otherwise in a special section in the forum.

Uberdude wrote:

When a European pro did speak up on L19 look at the welcome she received from our lovely admins.
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 6&p=161573

This is absurd. And the thread is even locked.

It should be ok for professional or high-dan players to advertise their lessons, books or otherwise in a special section in the forum.

What's next?

* A ban on John or Robert advertising their books?
* A ban on people saying they've taken lessons from player X?
* A ban on pointing out Go clubs or bookshops in Japan?
* A ban on "look at the Go board I bought from X"?
* A ban on "new version of iOS app X"?

How is this different?

Let's not turn L19 into KGS.

When a European pro did speak up on L19 look at the welcome she received from our lovely admins.
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 6&p=161573

Quote:

It should be ok for professional or high-dan players to advertise their lessons, books or otherwise in a special section in the forum.

Totally agree. Ultimately, of course, it's the site owner's choice,

Author:	mdm [ Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am ]
Post subject:	European Pro Privileges
What are the benefits of becoming one of the new European pros? Are they allowed to compete in Asian tournaments? If not, what is the point of becoming a pro in Europe?

Author:	RobertJasiek [ Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
Presumably they may play in certain tournaments (and so have access to their prizes) in that others may not play. Presumably they get support or allowances for teaching or support for publishing that other teachers or publishers do not get.

Author:	oren [ Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
I imagine the biggest privilege is more training. Some students already went to China for teaching, and this will presumably help raise the level of Go in Europe.

Author:	Bantari [ Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
RobertJasiek wrote: Presumably they may play in certain tournaments (and so have access to their prizes) in that others may not play. Presumably they get support or allowances for teaching or support for publishing that other teachers or publishers do not get. Is that not specified somewhere? I remember raising the very same question when the whole system was "revealed". Can't believe there is no clear answers by now.

Author:	gowan [ Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
What special privileges do other Europeans with pro status get? For example Dinerchtein, Shikshina, Taranu? These qualified for pro status through the Asian go associations but they seem to work/live in Europe and, as far as I can see, earn most of their living from teaching rather than playing in Korean or Japanese tournaments.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

European Pro Privileges http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10099	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Backpack [ Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
The only European who is a real "qualified" pro is Taranu( and Hans Pietsch, RIP), the others are so called "political" pros who could not pass the exam but were awarded pro status for their efforts/to support european go.

Author:	lemmata [ Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
Backpack wrote: The only European who is a real "qualified" pro is Taranu( and Hans Pietsch, RIP), the others are so called "political" pros who could not pass the exam but were awarded pro status for their efforts/to support european go. gowan wrote: What special privileges do other Europeans with pro status get? For example Dinerchtein, Shikshina, Taranu? These qualified for pro status through the Asian go associations but they seem to work/live in Europe and, as far as I can see, earn most of their living from teaching rather than playing in Korean or Japanese tournaments. Interesting points and interesting questions. However, the OP seems to be asking about the pros that will be certified by the EGF in the near future. There was a thread about it some time ago. The benefit of becoming an EGF pro seems unclear at this point because they seem to be trying to figure out what they want the system to be, but tournaments that will be open only to EGF pros seems to be part of the rough sketch. So RJ is correct in that regard. The old thread has a link to a BGA document saying as much.

Author:	Javaness2 [ Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
I guess that eventually the EGF will put up a webpage that outlines the Grand Slam and Bonus Point tournament circuit. For now though, there is no easily accessible information, and you need to check out the contract.

Author:	John Fairbairn [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
Speak up, pros! The overwhelming majority of go professionals in any country are what the Japanese call "lesson pros" - teachers, and not in the sense of Kitani training a stable of future champions. Their daily bread is earned by teaching little kids, guys trying to relax after a hard day at the office, women who do lunch and go instead of flower arranging, and so on. A lucky few can coach those with real talent. The number who can be matadors and get in the ring with real bulls can be counted in tens worldwide. It therefore stands to reason that, until a blue moon comes along, all European (or American) pros will have to be teachers. In that light, their almost total lack of engagement with their potential clientele baffles me. L19 offers them maybe the best chance to engage. Instead they prefer to act like mountebanks peddling the three-card trick on the pavement, hoping that some sucker will walk by. Totally unprofessional.

Author:	kivi [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
John Fairbairn wrote: Speak up, pros! ... Instead they prefer to act like mountebanks peddling the three-card trick on the pavement, hoping that some sucker will walk by. Totally unprofessional. The new European pros are not selected yet.

Author:	quantumf [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
Nice point, John, very valid. I think, though, that most teenagers who enter the world of go and aspire to be pro do so because they have a vision of being one of those "matadors" you describe. It's hard to believe that your average teen embarks on this journey of becoming a pro so that one can teach amateurs during their lunch breaks. I'm sure this is as true of teens (or younger) in Japan, China, Korea, as it is for the USA or Europe. So I don't think they are being unprofessional, exactly, but perhaps living in a fantasy world that is unlikely to ever actually materialize.

Author:	wineandgolover [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
John Fairbairn wrote: Speak up, pros! ... It therefore stands to reason that, until a blue moon comes along, all European (or American) pros will have to be teachers. In that light, their almost total lack of engagement with their potential clientele baffles me. L19 offers them maybe the best chance to engage. Instead they prefer to act like mountebanks peddling the three-card trick on the pavement, hoping that some sucker will walk by. Totally unprofessional. A bit harsh, John. Perhaps these prospective pros haven't yet accepted their, umm, fate. And until they do, perhaps they will focus on learning, rather than teaching. Out of interest, do you think Asian insei should also follow your dictates for professionals? Are you condemning the individuals or the very idea of western pro systems? I am not asking this sarcastically or antagonistically, but would just like to better understand your beef.

Author:	Uberdude [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
When a European pro did speak up on L19 look at the welcome she received from our lovely admins. viewtopic.php?f=16&p=161573

Author:	John Fairbairn [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
Quote: It should be ok for professional or high-dan players to advertise their lessons, books or otherwise in a special section in the forum. Totally agree. Ultimately, of course, it's the site owner's choice, but on the assumption he is providing it in order to help the spread of go, I think he should bear in mind that one of the greatest problems the western world has faced for a long time, even before internet days, is a lack of outlets for advertising. Allowing that would do immense good. Even asking for payment would be OK, I think. I would include advertising of tournaments under the same heading. My impression is that the current site owner does have a philanthropic view on this - a great big thank you. Some admins may have a more myopic view. Obviously advertisers should exercise moderation and/or give something back in return.

Author:	hyperpape [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
One thing I've wondered about the American system is the commitment involved. Especially if you look at the first professional qualification tournament, you see a lot of older players, some of whom I knew had established careers that (I'd believe) they didn't wish to leave. In general, there's been a tremendous lack of communication concerning the professional program. I don't want to put too much fault on the AGA, since it is run by volunteers, and right now I can't personally contribute. Nonetheless, I just think that there are things that should be done publicly in order to be a respectable professional program that are not being done, or not being publicized. Maybe the US/Canada and the AGA just aren't ready.

Author:	Knotwilg [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
While the admin intervention on Svetlana's ad may have been harsh, I actually think there is a common thought behind that reaction and John's equally harsh evaluation of the average "amateur professional"'s mindset. Since the Web 2.0 era, the usual way to find a clientele is to give free content away first, then let customers pay for permium content or private tutoring. We've seen way too little of that, while the amateur community has offered plenty of solutions to educate the masses: - gobase - Sensei's library - GTL - servers - L19 - ... There are only a few people who have used those platforms this way. I'm thinking of Kan Ming U, aka Minue 6d, who provided are rare and voluminous contribution about Haengma on SL and for some time tried to make a few bucks from KGS teaching. The Nordic league has gathered around Antii Tormanen and use KGS to teach others. Credits must go to Alexandre Dinerchtein and An Younggil, two pros who have understood their future lies in teaching and set up go4go and gogameguru respectively, giving away lots of free content and waging on different sources of income levering that content. With John I remain baffled with the complete absence of all other pros from aforementioned platforms, probably because they are caught between a rock and a hard place when providing free content which could form the essence of their paid teaching or product. Even John himself has been disgusted at some point by the reuse of his GoGoD content at SL, while other strong amateurs left SL for the impact of WIKI-democratization or -obscurization of their contributions, according to the established practices at SL - and all with good reason I grant them. I would have expected SL or some integration with gobase or other sgf supporting sites to be used as a platform for real expert discussion, to distill go knowledge and collectively enhance it, but the 6d are busy developing their own skills in private and - for all I know - set up their own knowledge bases in private corners. You have to give credit to Robert Jasiek too, an expert on at least certain matters, who has been relentless in providing his expertise while advertising his products or teaching and perhaps receive too much scolding for it, including me. Returning to where we started: if Svetlana had provided her thoughts on questions at L19 multiple times and established herself as a "good person" next to a known professional, an ad squeezed in once in a while would not have been responded to in such a fashion, or she could have responded to questions for more detail with an innocent "contact me at ..." to close the deal privately. And as a closing thought: maybe the mindset of "becoming a teacher" runs counter the stamina one needs to become a competitive pro. In other words: you don't know beforehand if you will be the one who succeeds.

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Author:	RBerenguel [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
Marcel Grünauer wrote: Uberdude wrote: When a European pro did speak up on L19 look at the welcome she received from our lovely admins. http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 6&p=161573 This is absurd. And the thread is even locked. It should be ok for professional or high-dan players to advertise their lessons, books or otherwise in a special section in the forum. What's next? * A ban on John or Robert advertising their books? * A ban on people saying they've taken lessons from player X? * A ban on pointing out Go clubs or bookshops in Japan? * A ban on "look at the Go board I bought from X"? * A ban on "new version of iOS app X"? How is this different? Let's not turn L19 into KGS. Yup, I think the locking and editing was way over the top, but the post by Shikshina was also kind of "a little too obvious." There's advertising and "advertising." It's a fine line from one to the other, though.

Author:	Hushfield [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
Uberdude wrote: When a European pro did speak up on L19 look at the welcome she received from our lovely admins. http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 6&p=161573 That is indeed very much unacceptable. By the way, on a completely unrelated note, I found this really cool website from a professional player that offers online lessons. Her name is Svetlana Shikshina. You can find some more info about her on Sensei's Library. If you're interested in her lessons, check out: http://svetlana.shikshina.com/lessons/.

Author:	gowan [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
Some of the American pros are still quite young and may well want to finish university before embarking on a pro go career. Many pro teachers are listed on http://senseis.xmp.net/?KGSTeachers which is a handy reference for how to contact teaching pros. Most prospective students would need to take lessons on-line, of course. As for European pros it wouldn't be farfetched to guess that when we know who they are we'll find that many of them already teach. Regarding John Fairbairn's comment about "teaching pros", it is well known that go professionals often cannot make a living from tournament prizes or game fees and get most of their income from teaching or other activities such as running go salons.

Author:	xed_over [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: European Pro Privileges
John Fairbairn wrote: Quote: It should be ok for professional or high-dan players to advertise their lessons, books or otherwise in a special section in the forum. Totally agree. Ultimately, of course, it's the site owner's choice, Its my understanding that this site's owner is us. Its a community run site.