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Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
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Author:  lemmata [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
Park Ji-eun was ahead by 2.5 (?) and lost on move 306 due to a self-atari.

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Of course, self-ataris in pro games is not a new phenomenon. However, it did make me think... I would love to see the following experiment.

Take all pro game positions at move X (taken from some large database). Make computers and pros play against each other starting from that position (with the players' colors chosen by a coin flip). What would be the smallest value of X at which the computers would win half of the time?
Author:  Uberdude [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Here's the game from Mr Kin's site, but it's incomplete. Seems someone is trying to save Park Jieun's embarrassment.
Author:  ez4u [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
It is an interesting position. I can easily imagine myself succumbing to the illusion that there are two empty liberties on those stones.
Author:  lemmata [ Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu

Here's the full game record.

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Author:  TheBigH [ Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
Ouch! That's very unfortunate.
Author:  Pericles [ Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
I also made this game a "breaking news" on my blog :)

I didn't comment that very game though. Self atari happens. Didnd't want to review that one, but thought it would be nice to share anyway

http://kingdomofbaduk.blogspot.fr/2014/ ... -news.html

peri'
Author:  lemmata [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
At first, I thought that this was an interesting oddity. Then I started thinking like an adult carrying the burden of making a living and looked up the information about prizes.

There is a $7000 difference between the prizes for the winner and the runner-up. Park made a $7000 self-atari. Female pros don't make a ton of money to begin with, so that might be a huge difference. I think that pros can handle the shame of a self-atari just fine, but I doubt that they can handle the loss of $7000 very well. Zoinks! :o
Author:  Pippen [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
lemmata wrote:
There is a $7000 difference between the prizes for the winner and the runner-up. Park made a $7000 self-atari. Female pros don't make a ton of money to begin with, so that might be a huge difference. I think that pros can handle the shame of a self-atari just fine, but I doubt that they can handle the loss of $7000 very well. Zoinks! :o


Certainly the money will hurt more, but gosh, this is so humiliating, esp. if there was enough time. I wanna see her face after that mistake, it's an DDK mistake, isn't it? But when looking from a little more distance it's no big deal. detritus happens and there is no perfect human. Better to make mistakes like this in a board game than in real life^^.
Author:  lemmata [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
Pippen wrote:
Better to make mistakes like this in a board game than in real life^^.
Isn't it real life to her since this is how she makes a living and real life money was left on the table because of it?

But yes, I am very glad that my mistakes on the go board are without real life consequences. In other words, I am glad that I am not a pro go player. Do you feel the same way?
Author:  lichigo [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
Hi ,
Kim jaeyoung is one my good friend and i talked with her about this mistake and she feel very strange , she think this title is not "clean" and people will not see her like a 100% champion even if for me she s so so strong.
Author:  ez4u [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
lichigo wrote:
Hi ,
Kim jaeyoung is one my good friend and i talked with her about this mistake and she feel very strange , she think this title is not "clean" and people will not see her like a 100% champion even if for me she s so so strong.

But she captured the stones nevertheless...
Author:  lichigo [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
Yeah you right, every baduk players will take the stones.
Author:  moyoaji [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
ez4u wrote:
But she captured the stones nevertheless...

Would you just ignore and not take the stones? There is a title on the line, you are behind in yose, and you can win with one move. You have to take that move.

And would you not also feel strange afterwards? Of course, but you had to take that move. Would it feel like you didn't really win? Sure, but you have to capture the stones.

Once the mistake was made everything that followed was inevitable. I can only begin to understand the emotional state of both of these professionals following this game. I just hope they are both able to move past this and play well in future matches.
Author:  Mef [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
moyoaji wrote:
ez4u wrote:
But she captured the stones nevertheless...

Would you just ignore and not take the stones? There is a title on the line


Indeed, this changes considerably when it's a professional tournament. Everything you can do to win you do...because that's how you get paid. To yet again go with a baseball analogy....If it's tied bottom the ninth, bases loaded, 3-1 count...and the ball slips out of the pitcher's hand when he tries to throw a curve...you don't swing out of kindness...you take the win and express disappointment on the circumstances.
Author:  ez4u [ Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
Mef wrote:
moyoaji wrote:
ez4u wrote:
But she captured the stones nevertheless...

Would you just ignore and not take the stones? There is a title on the line


Indeed, this changes considerably when it's a professional tournament. Everything you can do to win you do...because that's how you get paid. To yet again go with a baseball analogy....If it's tied bottom the ninth, bases loaded, 3-1 count...and the ball slips out of the pitcher's hand when he tries to throw a curve...you don't swing out of kindness...you take the win and express disappointment on the circumstances.
[Emphasis added]
Right up to the end I agree with you. However, I'll assume the last statement is a joke. I certainly haven't noticed it in any baseball post-game interviews.

Basically if she did it because she 'had to' as a pro, she shouldn't forget that she left her humanity in her handbag when she accepted her license. Was she outplayed? Yes. Does it matter? No, she is a pro and she won. She gets the money and the title. Would she do it again? Presumably yes. Does she think that people will see it as not clean because she was outplayed? Well, they are right and there is nothing to be done about it, so why worry about them thinking that? Does she think that people will see it as not clean because they don't think she should have done it? Well, why worry about that, unless in her heart she agrees with them to some extent?
Author:  Mef [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
ez4u wrote:
]
Right up to the end I agree with you...


Honestly, I'm sure we agree to the very end...she expresses expresses disappointment, it's the politically correct thing to do. There is no need to legitimately feel disappointed about winning in this case, it's what you do, and as you mention it's what you will do every time (as you should). But when asked about it in the press, it's classy to regret that your opponent made mistakes.
Author:  Splatted [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
Tatemae

Image

Honne
Author:  Bonobo [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
I can empathize with a stale feeling afterwards … reminds me of games I won on time when I was behind :-| Yes, I take the victory, but I have the feeling I didn’t really win.


Greetz, Tom
Author:  Pippen [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
Is this the boldest mistake ever by a pro?
Author:  oren [ Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Self-atari in the deciding game of Women's Guksu
Pippen wrote:
Is this the boldest mistake ever by a pro?


No.
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