Life In 19x19
http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Are go tournaments "notable"?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12088		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  emeraldemon [ Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Are go tournaments "notable"?
The english wikipedia has only scattered information about professional go. I went to see if they had a page about Ke Jie and they don't. I thought he should at least be mentioned for winning the Bailing cup, but there is no page for the Bailing cup. I tried to create a stub of a wikipedia page for it, with some links to gogameguru and intergofed as references. The page was rejected with the message "This submission's references do not adequately show the subject's notability".

I am sure wikipedia admins get lots of non-notable page creations, so they err on the side of caution. It is hard for me to find "notability references" since most information is in Chinese, which I don't speak (this is why I wanted to improve wikipedia coverage...). It seems like i have two options:

1) Try to argue with the admin, find more references, get the wikipedia page created.


2) Let wikipedia be outdated & wrong, focus on updating Sensei's, where at least no one will stop me from making new pages.


Arguably Sensei's might be the better place, but it has orders of magnitude less traffic, and I do think Go tournaments are at least as notable as Tournaments for Magic, Pokemon, Smash bros, etc., all of which have pages. But I am doing all of this as procrastination, I don't want to spend a ton of time hunting down sources and trying to decipher google translate. What should I do?
Author:  globulon [ Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are go tournaments "notable"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar-Baby
Author:  Uberdude [ Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are go tournaments "notable"?
Perhaps Charles Matthews can offer some advice as he is quite the wiki-nerd! I believe he has even written about the need to address the Western white male bias of wikipedia (of users and consequently coverage of topics that tend to interest them), which this example seems to suffer from. Sadly the wikipedia admins/culture and deletionists made me choose option 2 long ago.
Author:  gowan [ Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Are go tournaments "notable"?
There is a page on Wikipedia (English) for Gu Li.

Most of the pages on the game on English Wikipedia are about historical Japanese go, but brief mention of Chinese weiqi and a few players are on the main Go (game) page. Maybe linking to that and using better references would allow your stub to stay.
Author:  Charles Matthews [ Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are go tournaments "notable"?
emeraldemon wrote:
The english wikipedia has only scattered information about professional go. I went to see if they had a page about Ke Jie and they don't.


The notability of go pros has been discussed on (the English) Wikipedia. When asked, I said I thought pro 4 dan should be the notability level in general, roughly equivalent to chess grandmaster. So he just passes that.

emeraldemon wrote:
I thought he should at least be mentioned for winning the Bailing cup, but there is no page for the Bailing cup. I tried to create a stub of a wikipedia page for it, with some links to gogameguru and intergofed as references. The page was rejected with the message "This submission's references do not adequately show the subject's notability".


What title did you use? As a WP admin I could see your text.

emeraldemon wrote:
I am sure wikipedia admins get lots of non-notable page creations, so they err on the side of caution. It is hard for me to find "notability references" since most information is in Chinese, which I don't speak (this is why I wanted to improve wikipedia coverage...). It seems like i have two options:

1) Try to argue with the admin, find more references, get the wikipedia page created.


2) Let wikipedia be outdated & wrong, focus on updating Sensei's, where at least no one will stop me from making new pages.


For a rising star, 1) is clearly better.

While we are on the subject, see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... rn_(writer)

I have known John Fairbairn since the 1970s, and I don't imagine (knowing his views on WP) that he is much concerned whether he has an article there or not. But there is still time for people with good sources, which might not be in English, to get the article kept.

emeraldemon wrote:
Arguably Sensei's might be the better place, but it has orders of magnitude less traffic, and I do think Go tournaments are at least as notable as Tournaments for Magic, Pokemon, Smash bros, etc., all of which have pages. But I am doing all of this as procrastination, I don't want to spend a ton of time hunting down sources and trying to decipher google translate. What should I do?


It's hardly hopeless: both the Japanese and Chinese Wikipedias have articles about Ke Jie. See

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18653975

Translation is not so hard, with Google Translate; at least to see what a source says (enWP will allow non-English sources in this sort of case).

By the way, I found that Wikidata page easily, because Sensei's usefully had the Chinese characters for the name. It doesn't for the Bailing Cup: so one helpful piece of research would be to get the name on http://senseis.xmp.net/?BailingCup in Chinese.

I'm happy enough to work with people who want to improve go coverage on enWP. I did a bit, but I had written so much on go I actually wanted a change.
Author:  Charles Matthews [ Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are go tournaments "notable"?
Uberdude wrote:
Sadly the wikipedia admins/culture and deletionists made me choose option 2 long ago.


Oh, I remember the discussion very well. I asked whether there was just the one article you cared about in the many millions! This was face-to-face at the go club, I hasten to add.
Author:  Charles Matthews [ Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are go tournaments "notable"?
Charles Matthews wrote:
By the way, I found that Wikidata page easily, because Sensei's usefully had the Chinese characters for the name. It doesn't for the Bailing Cup: so one helpful piece of research would be to get the name on http://senseis.xmp.net/?BailingCup in Chinese.


So this looks like the Wikidata page for the Bailing Cup:

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q15285702

The name appears in Japanese, Chinese and Korean. No English label and description yet: please fill in if you can confirm. Wikidata should prove useful for go players.

The adventurous can check the six footnoted references in the Chinese version.
Author:  emeraldemon [ Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are go tournaments "notable"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Bailing_Cup

It's just a stub, originally I thought I would create the page and then add more. Maybe there is a higher threshold for drafts.

By the way Ke Jie is 9P now, Sensei's was unfortunately out of date. I made a quick fix.
Author:  emeraldemon [ Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are go tournaments "notable"?
Yes, those are the chinese etc. pages for the Bailing cup. I don't know how to add it to the wikidata, but if we want to continue on wikipedia maybe I should message you there for questions?
Author:  Charles Matthews [ Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Are go tournaments "notable"?
emeraldemon wrote:
Yes, those are the chinese etc. pages for the Bailing cup. I don't know how to add it to the wikidata, but if we want to continue on wikipedia maybe I should message you there for questions?


There is more to say here, about translations. I'll start another thread for that, though, in a couple of days time. Basically a translation from another Wikipedia should receive better treatment, and there is recent improved infrastructure.

Just for my own interest, I queried Wikidata to see how many go players it has, the answer being 581 (at least). Of those, 242 have an English Wikipedia article. Well worth a systematic project.

(By the way, Wikidata is editable as Wikipedia is, the main difference being it has multiple editing boxes. The top one is for "label", i.e. title in a given language, "description", and "aliases". Not too hard. The one thing of local knowledge is to put {{#babel:en}} on your user page, which turns the defaults into English-only settings.)
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/