Life In 19x19
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Kisei 2016
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12658		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Uberdude [ Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:03 am ]
Post subject:  Kisei 2016
Yamashita Keigo 9p is challenging Iyama Yuta 9p for the Kisei title, for the third time in a row. Last time Iyama won the first 3, Yamashita the next 3, and Iyama the crucial decider. Iyama won games 1 and 2 of this 40th Kisei title match, and one of the 2 days of the 3rd has been played. I took a look at the 2nd game, it was a very interesting and complex fighting game with numerous trades and tenukis, definetely not the "peaceful Japanese style" AlphaGo has been accused of.
Author:  jeromie [ Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
A few weeks ago on the baduk sub-Reddit, posted a professional game and asked for a review, claiming that it was a game between two SDK players. If someone told me this was a game between two amateurs, I'd probably believe them initially. There are moves that just look wrong to my amateur eye: ignoring two moves in the upper left corner to secure the bottom (I'd probably claim black was over concentrated), the group with no base that develops after Iyama splits the double approach in the upper right, and a handful of others. The difference is that they all end up working later in the game.

In some ways, it's more impressive to see these professional games where the players make "wrong" moves but can still handle all of the groups that develop. Thanks for posting this!
Author:  skydyr [ Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
jeromie wrote:
A few weeks ago on the baduk sub-Reddit, posted a professional game and asked for a review, claiming that it was a game between two SDK players. If someone told me this was a game between two amateurs, I'd probably believe them initially. There are moves that just look wrong to my amateur eye: ignoring two moves in the upper left corner to secure the bottom (I'd probably claim black was over concentrated), the group with no base that develops after Iyama splits the double approach in the upper right, and a handful of others. The difference is that they all end up working later in the game.

In some ways, it's more impressive to see these professional games where the players make "wrong" moves but can still handle all of the groups that develop. Thanks for posting this!


Well, this says more about the strength of those making the comments than it does about the moves themselves.

To me at least, the initial trade of top left for bottom right seemed reasonable. Black gains a lot of territory and a weak white group to harrass, while white severely restricts black in exchange in the upper left. That said, I doubt I would think of it myself.

Thinking of them as wrong moves is in itself a problem, though. Clearly, they're very good moves if they can be used competitively at a top professional level. In some ways, as you get stronger, the number of reasonable moves gets lower, but in different directions, it expands. Learning to expand your repertoire is just as important as eliminating the bad moves.
Author:  jeromie [ Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
Yes, I fully realize my comments reflect my own weaknesses rather than any fault in the actual play. The moves are "wrong" only in the sense that they don't align nicely with the standard heuristics / proverbs taught to beginners, but they clearly work in the context of the game. That's my point, really: professionals are able to make interesting, creative moves because they have the reading ability to back up their choices. Their true strength is more clearly on display when they deviate from conventional play since it's readily apparent that they are relying on their own strength instead of the established wisdom that has been passed down. As a kyu level player, my play in the opening may often mimic professional moves, but the reading (and reasoning) behind the moves is completely different. When I allow a floating group to develop, it's likely because of a lack of foresight. When Iyama Yuta does it, there's a clear plan as to how he can use it for profit throughout the game.
Author:  Calvin Clark [ Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
I've basically stopped trying to guess the next move in modern pro games. Whatever I know is worthless for this. I just look at the results after a few moves or after having gone through the game once to see if I believe these results are equal or not.

On the one hand, it's great that players are getting creative and are constantly showing us that go is more flexible than we think. On the other hand, it's exhausting.
Author:  Uberdude [ Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
Iyama just won the fourth game and with it retains the Kisei title.
Author:  jeromie [ Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
That leaves only the Judan for him to hold all of the Japanese titles, right?
Author:  Uberdude [ Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
jeromie wrote:
That leaves only the Judan for him to hold all of the Japanese titles, right?

Yes, and the Judan title match against Ida Atsushi (who vs Iyama has 1-5 record) is in March-April (and no others before then) so Iyama looks pretty likely to make the big 7 he missed out on a couple of years ago.
http://igokisen.web.fc2.com/jp/judan.html
Author:  DrStraw [ Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
I no longer follow the pro scene closely but winning all seven seems like quite an achievement. Has anyone done it before?

Why do you think this is possible? Is it a reflection on the strength of Iyama, or more a reflection on the lack of strength of the rest. How would Iyama compare to the top pros of the last 40 years if the played together with each in their prime?
Author:  Uberdude [ Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
DrStraw wrote:
I no longer follow the pro scene closely but winning all seven seems like quite an achievement. Has anyone done it before?

Iyama has already won all 7 big titles in Japan (as have Cho Chikun and Cho U), what he could do in a month and a half which no one has done before is hold them all simultaneously.

DrStraw wrote:
Why do you think this is possible? Is it a reflection on the strength of Iyama, or more a reflection on the lack of strength of the rest.

A bit of both I think. Iyama is probably in the world top 10-20 (goratings.org puts him at #3 which is probably a bit high but it's hard to say with his isolation in Japan versus the Korean/Chinese) whereas no one else in Japan is near that level.

DrStraw wrote:
How would Iyama compare to the top pros of the last 40 years if the played together with each in their prime?
Based on the views on Myungwan Kim 9p in his commentaries, pros these days are stronger than pros 10 years ago. He doesn't think Lee Changho has got much weaker compared to his dominant years, but that everyone else has got stronger. Would he beat Sakata? I'd guess yes, but it's not a particularly informed view.
Author:  jeromie [ Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
DrStraw wrote:
I no longer follow the pro scene closely but winning all seven seems like quite an achievement. Has anyone done it before?

Why do you think this is possible? Is it a reflection on the strength of Iyama, or more a reflection on the lack of strength of the rest. How would Iyama compare to the top pros of the last 40 years if the played together with each in their prime?


Before Iyama, the most titles held at once was 5/7 by Cho U. I think there were similarly impressive accomplishments before the current 7 titles were in place, though (1977).

Iyama's dominance seems to come from 3 factors: he is very good (on par with the top players from other countries, though general consensus is that he is not currently best in the world), Japan currently lacks depth (Iyama is by far the best domestically), and the Japanese title format favors incumbents, as they don't have to fight through the qualifying tournaments.
Author:  oren [ Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
Sakata had more wins in a row than Iyama just had and had 7 of the biggest titles of his time period.

Sakata's dominance over that period is close to what Iyama has now.

No one is close to when Lee Changho had 42 or so straight wins.
Author:  hyperpape [ Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
oren wrote:
No one is close to when Lee Changho had 42 or so straight wins.
When was that? I had surprising trouble with a google search.
Author:  Kirby [ Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
hyperpape wrote:
oren wrote:
No one is close to when Lee Changho had 42 or so straight wins.
When was that? I had surprising trouble with a google search.


It was in 1990.

1. February 27
2. March 19
3. March 23
4. March 27
5. April 3
6. April 17
7. April 20
8. May 4
9. May 4
10. May 7
11. May 8
12. May 11
13. May 15
14. May 17
15. May 19
16. May 21
17. May 25
18. May 31
19. June 6
20. June 8
21. June 11
22. June 14
23. June 18
24. June 27
25. June 29
26. July 15
27. July 18
28. July 20
29. July 25
30. July 26
31. July 27
32. August 8
33. August 7
34. August 9
35. August 20
36. August 22
37. August 24
38. August 27
39. August 28
40. August 29
41. August 31

Then, I guess he lost. Too bad, because he was on a roll.
Author:  Solomon [ Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
Not sure why, but doing some research on the 41-win streak of Lee Changho led me to this interesting news piece video done by MBC in 1990: http://tvpot.daum.net/v/sc456nwcrcwmeL6LjBmcrHH

You can see 15-year-old Lee Changho back when he was 4p, along with Cho Hunhyun, Yoo Changhyuk, Seo Beongsoo (these names should sound familiar to anyone following the Korean Legends tournament that recently just ended), Yang Jaeho, and others.
Author:  macelee [ Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
Note the 41-game winning streak was for domestic games only.
Author:  Kirby [ Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
macelee wrote:
Note the 41-game winning streak was for domestic games only.


I don't know the details of how they counted it, but I don't think you're correct.

For example, the wins on April 7th and April 9th were for the Fujitsu Cup (e.g. April 9th, he won against Takemiya Masao). The list also includes some wins from the Asian TV Cup, where he beat Qian Yuping 9p from China, along with Takemiya Masaki 9d and Kobayashi Satoru 9d from Japan.

So I don't think it's true to say that his winning streak was limited to domestic matches, even if it includes many domestic games.
Author:  gamesorry [ Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
Kirby wrote:
macelee wrote:
Note the 41-game winning streak was for domestic games only.


I don't know the details of how they counted it, but I don't think you're correct.

For example, the wins on April 7th and April 9th were for the Fujitsu Cup (e.g. April 9th, he won against Takemiya Masao). The list also includes some wins from the Asian TV Cup, where he beat Qian Yuping 9p from China, along with Takemiya Masaki 9d and Kobayashi Satoru 9d from Japan.

So I don't think it's true to say that his winning streak was limited to domestic matches, even if it includes many domestic games.


macelee might be referring to this game:

[1990-06-02] 3rd Fujitsu Cup, round 3
Lee Changho 4p vs Kobayashi Koichi 9p W+0.5

(according to sensei's library, here is the list for the 41 wins: https://valeriosampieri.wordpress.com/2 ... nsecutive/)

but anyway Lee Changho is still a great player ;-)
Author:  Kirby [ Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
gamesorry wrote:
Kirby wrote:
macelee wrote:
Note the 41-game winning streak was for domestic games only.


I don't know the details of how they counted it, but I don't think you're correct.

For example, the wins on April 7th and April 9th were for the Fujitsu Cup (e.g. April 9th, he won against Takemiya Masao). The list also includes some wins from the Asian TV Cup, where he beat Qian Yuping 9p from China, along with Takemiya Masaki 9d and Kobayashi Satoru 9d from Japan.

So I don't think it's true to say that his winning streak was limited to domestic matches, even if it includes many domestic games.


macelee might be referring to this game:

[1990-06-02] 3rd Fujitsu Cup, round 3
Lee Changho 4p vs Kobayashi Koichi 9p W+0.5

but anyway Lee Changho is still a great player ;-)


Could be. I'm just saying that the "streak" includes non-domestic games, which is contrary to what he said.

I also agree that I don't know what criteria is being used to consider it a "streak", due to examples like the one you mention.

But whatever criteria they are using, it's not that it only includes domestic games, since there are international tournament games included in the "streak".

There are always nuances to records like these. Kind of like last year when they said "Ki Jie hasn't lost a game this year as white". There were technically some losses, but apparently they didn't count them for that stat.

Probably same kind of thing here.
Author:  gamesorry [ Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Kisei 2016
Kirby wrote:
gamesorry wrote:
Kirby wrote:

I don't know the details of how they counted it, but I don't think you're correct.

For example, the wins on April 7th and April 9th were for the Fujitsu Cup (e.g. April 9th, he won against Takemiya Masao). The list also includes some wins from the Asian TV Cup, where he beat Qian Yuping 9p from China, along with Takemiya Masaki 9d and Kobayashi Satoru 9d from Japan.

So I don't think it's true to say that his winning streak was limited to domestic matches, even if it includes many domestic games.


macelee might be referring to this game:

[1990-06-02] 3rd Fujitsu Cup, round 3
Lee Changho 4p vs Kobayashi Koichi 9p W+0.5

but anyway Lee Changho is still a great player ;-)


Could be. I'm just saying that the "streak" includes non-domestic games, which is contrary to what he said.

I also agree that I don't know what criteria is being used to consider it a "streak", due to examples like the one you mention.

But whatever criteria they are using, it's not that it only includes domestic games, since there are international tournament games included in the "streak".

There are always nuances to records like these. Kind of like last year when they said "Ki Jie hasn't lost a game this year as white". There were technically some losses, but apparently they didn't count them for that stat.

Probably same kind of thing here.


Yeah I think at that time the international tournaments not held by Hanguk Kiwon were not counted (Therefore Fujitsu Cup is not included while Tongyang Cup is). There's a Chinese article talking about it: http://weiqi.sports.tom.com/news/21931.html (Note that Kobayashi Koichi was wrongly mentioned as Kobayashi Satoru).
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