Life In 19x19
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Comparison of Interest in Pro Go by Country
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1365		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Magicwand [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
i dont understand why people care so much about a match between two player who can not even rank top 20 in the world.
i know it is meijin but it is only for the people in japan and i dont think they can rank top 50 in the world.

basically i've seen better match.
Author:  Kirby [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Magicwand wrote:
i dont understand why people care so much about a match between two player who can not even rank top 20 in the world.
i know it is meijin but it is only for the people in japan and i dont think they can rank top 50 in the world.

basically i've seen better match.


Trolling?
Author:  Ember [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Magicwand wrote:
i dont understand why people care so much about a match between two player who can not even rank top 20 in the world.
i know it is meijin but it is only for the people in japan and i dont think they can rank top 50 in the world.

basically i've seen better match.


Well, then do you think that it is also not worth caring about your local sports club which might be in the lowest possible league just because of that fact? (or for whatever else you might care for, I don't know) Are you serious with what you wrote? Really? What makes you think like that? I cannot guess the reason and I think that this attitude is very shallow and it sounds quite snobbish to me. Please explain - in case you care!

I mean, from my point of view (6k) you as a 4dan are very strong and I have no doubts about the fact that you can see the differences between the countries better than me - but what makes you think that the games of japanese players are second class? Even if their results are worse than the ones of China and Korea, all of them could easily beat you to a pulp on the board... playing another X players at the same time. ;-) They're strong and they're pros none the less and just because - in your opinion! - there might not be any japanese pro in the top 50 players in the world - honestly - who [censored ;-) ] cares? Their games can be interesting games, still. I see no reason why this should not be the case. Personally, I like their games best as it is not about crazy fights I cannot understand anyway, but they (from what I experienced and understand) make good (well, everybody makes mistakes :D ) and honest moves. I learned more from them than from any korean or chinese pro. But for you it might be different, so why should a weak player like me be so arrogant to tell you what to think.. :roll: Although it really is a shame you think so lowly of them.

As you can see, our views differ quite a bit. But I have to agree on something you said:
Magicwand wrote:
basically i've seen better match.


But, please, change the context for me: I don't care a bit about the games of korean and chinese players - unless they play somebody I like. :-P
Author:  palapiku [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
People definitely care more about this match than they would about a game between two Chinese players of equivalent strength.
Author:  Peter Hansmeier [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Magicwand wrote:
i dont understand why people care so much about a match between two player who can not even rank top 20 in the world.
i know it is meijin but it is only for the people in japan and i dont think they can rank top 50 in the world.

basically i've seen better match.

I'll bite. :)

Did you see the game Iyama Yuta played against Gu Li? He was very aggressive, chasing Gu Li around the board. By the end he had made errors that earned him a loss, but it was an exciting game--not a boring rout that merely delayed the inevitable rematch between Gu Li and Lee Changho. I would like to see four to seven more of these games...

Iyama Yuta is a rising star, and though he has not had the same success as Chen Yaoye or Park Junghwan, he is probably the best prospect coming from Japan. Chang Hao singled him out as someone to watch. If you think he shows promise of becoming Japan's Nie Weiping, any match involving Iyama Yuta is worth watching.

I would be curious to see who you put in your top 50.
Ember wrote:
What do you think? Who has better chances?

I bet it goes 4-1 Iyama Yuta.
Author:  hyperpape [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
25th in China and Korea: http://senseis.xmp.net/?MengTailing; http://senseis.xmp.net/?LeeHeesung

(offered without commentary).
Author:  Magicwand [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Peter Hansmeier wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
i dont understand why people care so much about a match between two player who can not even rank top 20 in the world.
i know it is meijin but it is only for the people in japan and i dont think they can rank top 50 in the world.

basically i've seen better match.

I'll bite. :)

Did you see the game Iyama Yuta played against Gu Li? He was very aggressive, chasing Gu Li around the board. By the end he had made errors that earned him a loss, but it was an exciting game--not a boring rout that merely delayed the inevitable rematch between Gu Li and Lee Changho. I would like to see four to seven more of these games...

Iyama Yuta is a rising star, and though he has not had the same success as Chen Yaoye or Park Junghwan, he is probably the best prospect coming from Japan. Chang Hao singled him out as someone to watch. If you think he shows promise of becoming Japan's Nie Weiping, any match involving Iyama Yuta is worth watching.

I would be curious to see who you put in your top 50.
Ember wrote:
What do you think? Who has better chances?

I bet it goes 4-1 Iyama Yuta.


dont get me wrong i like iyama yuta.
i like his style i think he is strong. BUT!!! he gets better rating just because he is in a small pool without any competition. their rating is higher because it is MEIJIN.
30 years ago when we didnt have any world championship japanese people believed that they were the strongest player among korea and china. well..chinese thought that neiweping was the strongest in the world. in first ing's cup they only invited 1 korean player because they thought that korean player were not as strong(which were proven to be false). look what happened next 12 years. korean players won every world championship.
i just hate arrogance of japanese people(i did generalize yes). that is why i wrote such comment. they still are proud of their MEIJIN but there is nothing to be proud of.
YES THEY ARE SECOND CLASS. stronger than i am for sure but who isn't?

i am simply expressing my opinion on Meijin. i think i have a right to express my opinion.
Author:  Kirby [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Magicwand wrote:
...

i am simply expressing my opinion on Meijin. i think i have a right to express my opinion.


I know you didn't address this comment to me, but I'll comment anyway. Maybe I was a bit rude when I labeled your comment as "trolling". You have the right to express your opinion.

I (mistakenly?) thought that your comment was intended to cause a stir of emotions.
Author:  hyperpape [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Magicwand wrote:
i am simply expressing my opinion on Meijin. i think i have a right to express my opinion.


Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.--D.P. Moynihan

For all the Japanese 'arrogance', they're well aware and quite concerned that Chinese and Korean players currently dominate them. It's so far in their awareness that it was in Hikaru No Go.

When you say Korean players won every international title for 12 years, you either misspoke and meant "at least one of each" or you are simply wrong. They won a majority, but not every title. See: http://senseis.xmp.net/?InternationalTitleStatistics. Terms like "second class" are open to interpretation, but when you say there is no competition in Japan, you are simply wrong. Paying attention to international tournament tables and you will see that while Japanese players do not equal the top Chinese and Korean players, they are not cakewalks for them.

If Japanese were once arrogant, resting on their laurels--let's not forget how far Japanese Go surpassed Korea and China in the first 70 years of the 20th century--it's now gone full circle. We now have to deal with fanboys who think any Korean or Chinese professional could trounce Japanese title holders.
Author:  hyperpape [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
On another note, I wonder how much more attention Chinese and Korean games would get in the US if the major servers supported the Mac. I often watch games live, but am not going to brave the wilds of Wine for the Mac to try and get on Oro or Tygem.

Edit: (Although: I have an old laptop that just needs a powercord. I ordered one some time after I spilled beer on my macbook, but the powercord that arrived didn't match. A sign that the fates are against me?)
Author:  topazg [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
For me, the super meijin title showed that the best Japan has to offer is very competitive with the best China and Korea has. Not up to the same standard maybe, and not so many players around the standard as C and K, but still very close.
Author:  Kirby [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
hyperpape wrote:
On another note, I wonder how much more attention Chinese and Korean games would get in the US if the major servers supported the Mac. I often watch games live, but am not going to brave the wilds of Wine for the Mac to try and get on Oro or Tygem.


VirtualBox FTW.
Author:  Ember [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Magicwand wrote:
dont get me wrong i like iyama yuta.
i like his style i think he is strong. BUT!!! he gets better rating just because he is in a small pool without any competition. their rating is higher because it is MEIJIN.
30 years ago when we didnt have any world championship japanese people believed that they were the strongest player among korea and china. well..chinese thought that neiweping was the strongest in the world. in first ing's cup they only invited 1 korean player because they thought that korean player were not as strong(which were proven to be false). look what happened next 12 years. korean players won every world championship.
i just hate arrogance of japanese people(i did generalize yes). that is why i wrote such comment. they still are proud of their MEIJIN but there is nothing to be proud of.
YES THEY ARE SECOND CLASS. stronger than i am for sure but who isn't?

i am simply expressing my opinion on Meijin. i think i have a right to express my opinion.


Of course you can express your opinion, you have every right to do so and no one said something different. o.O But I still don't understand you. I see nothing wrong with the Japanese being proud of their Meijin as it is a very traditional title in Japan.. First Meijin Title was awarded in 1612 to Honinbo Sanza, first Myungin title was awarded more than 350 years later in 1968 and the first Mingren title in 1988. So they have every right to be proud of that.. It is historic. What you mentioned about their pride stemming just from the title of Meijin I cannot say, as I guess I'm not long enough in the scene and don't know enough about the past. You also have to keep in mind that since the 1910's there always was a bad relationship between Korea and Japan and I do not think that they excluded Koreans because they thought they were weak. Political situations of this calibre affect all facettes of life. This is of course not an excuse but a guess, if I may take that liberty.

And I think the Japanese pros are realistic now and times have changed, too. That's at least the picture I get when I read different interviews with them, they always seemed modest to me acknowledging that China and Korea are stronger (if it was different of course I would agree with you). I don't know what happened in the past and can only evaluate the situation as it is now and that's also what is important to me (not only in Go).
Author:  hyperpape [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Very interesting, Kirby.
Author:  Bantari [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
@magicwand

I would love to see how the Koreans and/or the Chinese top players would squirm and squeel and then lose if they were to play the Japanese in a serious two-day Go rather than in the Micky Mouse games they like to amuse themselves in.

And yes - THAT is trolling. ;)

But seriously, dude.
Even if the Japanese can be considered weaker in international competitions, I would assume that their slow-timed games are AT LEAST of the same quality as the fast-paced Korean/Chinese games, if not better. Its just a simple function of time controls and it can certainly overcome the small playing-strength disadvantage, if any. With the narrow-minded attitude like yours, the Korean and/or the Chinese would never have become as good as they are right now... since they would have never supported/advertised/broadcast/etc their own games as being vastly inferior... at the time they still were inferior. Think about that.
Author:  Magicwand [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Bantari wrote:
@magicwand

I would love to see how the Koreans and/or the Chinese top players would squirm and squeel and then lose if they were to play the Japanese in a serious two-day Go rather than in the Micky Mouse games they like to amuse themselves in.

And yes - THAT is trolling. ;)

But seriously, dude.
Even if the Japanese can be considered weaker in international competitions, I would assume that their slow-timed games are AT LEAST of the same quality as the fast-paced Korean/Chinese games, if not better. Its just a simple function of time controls and it can certainly overcome the small playing-strength disadvantage, if any. With the narrow-minded attitude like yours, the Korean and/or the Chinese would never have become as good as they are right now... since they would have never supported/advertised/broadcast/etc their own games as being vastly inferior... at the time they still were inferior. Think about that.


i have seen this crazy idea that 2 day game will give japanese player advantage.
it is simply crazy and rediculous to thing that.
didnt you see that people who are strong in 2day game also win in blitz game?
Author:  hyperpape [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
While I'm being semi-constructive, there's also a disparity of information on the subject. John Fairbairn keeps up with go in all three countries, but has more to say about Japanese go, and seems well-nigh unmatched in his level of knowledge and willingness to share it. For game results, when it comes to ease of use and (relative) lack of eye pain, I think Mr. Kin's go news wins, but also slants towards Japanese go (it's at http://igo-kisen.hp.infoseek.co.jp/news.html). Then there's John Power's digest of go news (http://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/index-e.htm).

For an English speaker, what's the best source of news that covers China and Korea in depth?
Author:  gowan [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Let us not forget that the Chinese and Koreans were taught by the Japanese. How many Japanese teaching trips to China from 40 years ago on? Cho Hunhyeon went to Japan to learn. Cho Chikun went to Japan because it was the best place for him to learn. It might be true that if Wu Ching yuan (Go Seigen) had stayed in China he never would have developed his full genius powers. It is well known and understandable that there are still hard feelings about how the Japanese behaved in Korea and China before WWII but let's not vent them in this forum.
Author:  palapiku [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
Magicwand, don't you think the opportunity to have two pros play a really long game - something which just doesn't happen that often apparently - is in itself a good enough reason to be interested in the match, even if the pros aren't the best in the world?
Author:  Magicwand [ Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 35th Meijin Match - Takao 9d challenges Iyama Meijin
palapiku wrote:
Magicwand, don't you think the opportunity to have two pros play a really long game - something which just doesn't happen that often apparently - is in itself a good enough reason to be interested in the match, even if the pros aren't the best in the world?


i will say again. i like both yuta and shinji. they are both strong players. i do enjoy watching their game.

my point is that they get more rating than other pros in korea or china just because they play meijin.
i just reviewed game between mokjinsuk and choi chulhan. very very exciting game.
in my opinion that game is more exciting and worth my time.
but many people miss such exciting game because it is not meijin.
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