Life In 19x19 :: Best Players in the World

I'd take a general win/loss-ratio of all games played and by that (as John Fairbairn pointed out somewhere) Yi Chang'ho is pretty much outstanding.

A four way tie for best in Japan?

No, this is not right. See http://senseis.xmp.net/?ChoU, if you're confused.

...
For the Japanese, I think the top two tiers are probably five players:

Cho, Iyama, Yamashita, Takao, Hane (the last three are not necessarily in any order).

More generally, I think it doesn't make sense to ignore each nation's tournaments. International titles are very prestigious, but if a player has a lot of wins in his nation's competition, that tends to suggest he's better than his countrymen. That's not to deny that international titles are more impressive wins than single-nation titles, but ignoring one gives you perverse rankings.

1. Lee Sedol
2. Lee Changho
3. Gu Li

Maybe I could find some clever way to parse the sgfs in GoGoD looking for tournament results, but that also sounds like work.

cho-u? how can he be in top 20??

It's very easy if ... (Windows only, of course).

John: can you do a search for games by a player just in international competition?

best player i think is
l. lee sehdol
2. kong jae
3. guli

lee changho is not strong as before. but i think he can be #4...
cho-u? how can he be in top 20??

Author:	emeraldemon [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Best Players in the World
Another thread (viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1365) brought up a question: who are the best players in the world right now? Of course, it's not possible to answer definitely, but we can try anyway Here's my top 5: 1. Lee Sedol 2. Lee Changho 3. Gu Li 4. Kong Jie 5. Chang Hao Here's my top 24: 1. Lee Sedol (30) 2. Lee Changho (29) 3. Gu Li (25) 4. Kong Jie (20) 4. Chang Hao (20) 6. Park Yeonghun (19) 7. Hu Yaoyu (10) 8. Piao Wenyao (9) 8. Choi Cheolhan (9) 10. Huang Yizhong (6) 10. Qiu Jun (6) 10. Cho Hanseung (6) 13. Kang Dongyun (5) 13. Xie He (5) 15. Zhou Junxun (4) 15. Han Sanghoon (4) 15. Liu Xing (4) 15. Zhou Ruiyang (4) 15. Zhou Heyang (4) 20. Kono Rin (3) 20. Yamashita Keigo (3) 20. Cho U (3) 20. Wang Xi (3) 20. Yoda Norimoto (3) I made that list by collecting results from the major international tournaments in the last three years (thanks to Mr Kin's Go News). I gave 4 points for a win, 3 for challenging, 2 for making top 4, and 1 for making top 8. Points are in parenthesis after the name. Of course there are arguments about how these international tournaments don't really represent the best players in the world, but I don't really find those arguments convincing. So, what's wrong with my list? Who do you think are the best?

Author:	SoDesuNe [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
I'd take a general win/loss-ratio of all games played and by that (as John Fairbairn pointed out somewhere) Yi Chang'ho is pretty much outstanding.

Author:	hyperpape [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
A four way tie for best in Japan? No, this is not right. See http://senseis.xmp.net/?ChoU, if you're confused.

Author:	emeraldemon [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
SoDesuNe wrote: I'd take a general win/loss-ratio of all games played and by that (as John Fairbairn pointed out somewhere) Yi Chang'ho is pretty much outstanding. That's an interesting idea. I have GoGoD, although it's a few years old. Is there a way to do this with Kombilo maybe? hyperpape wrote: A four way tie for best in Japan? No, this is not right. See http://senseis.xmp.net/?ChoU, if you're confused. I don't see anything on that page that I missed. Here are the results I have for those four from Japan: Cho U: 12th LG Cup (T8) 20th Fujitsu Cup (T4) Kono Rin: 22nd Fujitsu Cup (T8) 13th LG Cup (T8) 12th LG Cup (T8) Yamashita Keigo: 22nd Fujitsu Cup (T8) 13th LG Cup (T8) 13th Samsung Cup (T8) Yoda Norimoto: 21st Fujitsu Cup (T8) 20th Fujitsu Cup (T4) Remember I was only including results from the last three years, so I didn't count the 9th LG Cup win for Cho U. You could expand the window out to 5 or 10 years and see how it changes, but that would be more work . I'm not even sure how I would get those results, since Mr. Kin's doesn't go back that far. Maybe I could find some clever way to parse the sgfs in GoGoD looking for tournament results, but that also sounds like work.

Author:	hyperpape [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
Yes, they may be equivalent in international competition in the past three years, but I think it's irrelevant, because Cho dominates each of those players in Japanese competition, and there's far more of that. He's simply at a different level than any other Japanese professional, except perhaps Iyama Yuta. Actually, I wouldn't put Kono or Yoda in the cohort immediately behind Cho, at least not if we are thinking of the period since 2005. For the Japanese, I think the top two tiers are probably five players: Cho, Iyama, Yamashita, Takao, Hane (the last three are not necessarily in any order). More generally, I think it doesn't make sense to ignore each nation's tournaments. International titles are very prestigious, but if a player has a lot of wins in his nation's competition, that tends to suggest he's better than his countrymen. That's not to deny that international titles are more impressive wins than single-nation titles, but ignoring one gives you perverse rankings.

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Best Players in the World http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1377	Page 1 of 2

Author:	emeraldemon [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
hyperpape wrote: ... For the Japanese, I think the top two tiers are probably five players: Cho, Iyama, Yamashita, Takao, Hane (the last three are not necessarily in any order). More generally, I think it doesn't make sense to ignore each nation's tournaments. International titles are very prestigious, but if a player has a lot of wins in his nation's competition, that tends to suggest he's better than his countrymen. That's not to deny that international titles are more impressive wins than single-nation titles, but ignoring one gives you perverse rankings. So do you have a top 5 or top 10 worldwide? I can understand taking national tournaments to compare players within those countries, but I hesitate to use those results to move someone up or down the ranking. Maybe some sort of elo-type approach, estimating a "real rank" of the players?

Author:	freegame [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
nr 1: Fujiwara Sai emeraldemon wrote: 1. Lee Sedol 2. Lee Changho 3. Gu Li this looks like a nice top 2-4.

Author:	hyperpape [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
I don't know a ton about rating systems, but ELO style seems most reasonable, especially as you have bigger pools. A system based on places in major tournaments often works well for the very top players, not so well for players who might have a single place, which can be subject to a lot of chance variation.

Author:	Magicwand [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
best player i think is l. lee sehdol 2. kong jae 3. guli lee changho is not strong as before. but i think he can be #4... cho-u? how can he be in top 20??

Author:	John Fairbairn [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
Quote: Maybe I could find some clever way to parse the sgfs in GoGoD looking for tournament results, but that also sounds like work. It's very easy if you use GoLibrary on the disc (Windows only, of course). You can, for example, first search on a tournament, or even a round, then search further on a player. You can do the player search on Black, White or both. You can limit the year range. There are other filters. Win-loss totals and ratios come up automatically. I expect several other programs such as Drago allow similar and better procedures. Remember that we don't hide GoGoD behind cyphers or passwords, so that quite a few people have made use of the data in creative ways. Outside the 64,000 sgf files, GoGoD will also give you much data, background or gossip on the tournaments, as well as biographical data on, currently, 3,900 people. Yes, it sounds like work. But we've already done most of it!

Author:	hyperpape [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
Magicwand wrote: cho-u? how can he be in top 20?? No clue: http://igo-kisen.hp.infoseek.co.jp/world06.html; http://senseis.xmp.net/?LGCup You're probably not aware, but he hasn't been playing much in international titles. He's missed the 12th-14th samsungs, as well as the 14th and 15th LG cups (that's not an exhaustive list).

Author:	xed_over [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
John Fairbairn wrote: It's very easy if ... (Windows only, of course). one of these days I'm gonna have to try that Windows thing

Author:	hyperpape [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
John: can you do a search for games by a player just in international competition?

Author:	hyperpape [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
I don't know why I even ask: I already know I'm putting GoGoD on my christmas list.

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Author:	usagi [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
Magicwand wrote: best player i think is l. lee sehdol 2. kong jae 3. guli lee changho is not strong as before. but i think he can be #4... cho-u? how can he be in top 20?? Cho U is one of the strongest players in the world right now. -

Author:	cdybeijing [ Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
The original list is of course rightly based on performance in international tournaments, though some have mentioned that domestic tournament performance should be heavily valued as well. However, I think there are several young players in the world who are clearly top 10 in strength, but have not yet had the career opportunity to make a big splash on the international scene. Chen Yaoye, for example.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
cdybeijing wrote: ... Chen Yaoye... ...who is 9-7 vs Gu Li.

Author:	Christos [ Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
Noone mentioned Park Jung Hwan? He's amazing! http://senseis.xmp.net/?ParkJungHwan

Author:	Peter Hansmeier [ Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Best Players in the World
I would have to agree that both Park Junghwan and Chen Yaoye should be high on the list. My instinct is to put Chen Yaoye above Hu Yaoyu and Park Junghwan just above Huang Yizhong. This is not based on any particular research... Thanks for making a list!