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Major rules change in Japan
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=17517		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Mon May 25, 2020 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Major rules change in Japan
Bet that got a few quick clicks :)

And it's true. The Nihon Ki-in has decreed from 1 April 2020 that precedence rules, which give certain players preferential treatment such as the best seat, have been extended beyond the top three titles to the top seven.

What this means is that at the top of the pile are the current holders of the 7 major titles (in order: Kisei, Meijin, Honinbo, Oza, Tengen, Gosei, Judan)

These are followed by the honorary holders of the 7 major titles, and they in turn by the prospective holders of honorary titles (i.e. they've earned the honorary moniker but are still actually the title holder, which ranks higher).

These are followed by 9-dans who have had the experience of being a major title holder (again in Kisei, Meijin etc order, with ties split by number of titles).

Next come the 9-dans who have had no experience of being a title holder - obviously a very long list. Date of becoming a pro is used for the internal ranking in tis category.

Then come the 8-dans who have had experience of winning a major title (a VERY short list, as it happens).

None of this applies to Kansai Ki-in players, of course. It may seem OTT and anachronistic, but seating and so on is actually specified in the official rules. There you are told to keep 15 cm from the board. Infractions of this are of course the origin of the well known phrase "getting chopped off at the knees." (It's odd to have rules like this but none that stopped Sakata from picking his toenails at the board...)

The fascinating question is why? The best answer I can come up with is that too many people have nothing to do because there are no games (all still banned sine die because of CV, and that includes Game 3 of the Judan). So they are playing at being civil servants. There are lot of fripperies online, of course, and one that surprised me a bit was a pair go tournament at the Nagoya Ki-in in which a new rule was introduced: no resigning. The event was decided by total victory margins rather than by wins or losses. This is very close to the knuckle of gambling go (mego = points go) which the bigwigs of go normally strongly discountenance.
Author:  jann [ Mon May 25, 2020 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Major rules change in Japan
John Fairbairn wrote:
This is very close to the knuckle of gambling go (mego = points go) which the bigwigs of go normally strongly discountenance.

This sounds interesting, and gambling part aside I don't see valid reasons for the latter. It is just a slightly different game with slightly different strategies (complications are less preferable even when behind, and starting large fights need more consideration). A more complex utility function than simple winrate. :)

But I can see why someone at the peak of the normal game would not like this any more than other variants. Then again, win/loss usually depends on komi, so aiming at maximizing the more definite board result instead makes some sense. Alternating colors komi is not even necessary.
Author:  ez4u [ Mon May 25, 2020 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Major rules change in Japan
jann wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:
This is very close to the knuckle of gambling go (mego = points go) which the bigwigs of go normally strongly discountenance.

This sounds interesting, and gambling part aside I don't see valid reasons for the latter. It is just a slightly different game with slightly different strategies (complications are less preferable even when behind, and starting large fights need more consideration). A more complex utility function than simple winrate. :)

But I can see why someone at the peak of the normal game would not like this any more than other variants. Then again, win/loss usually depends on komi, so aiming at maximizing the more definite board result instead makes some sense. Alternating colors komi is not even necessary.

Obviously our view on this will depend on what we expect the result on strategy to be. Personally, I think it is a terrible idea. What is the strategy of a player who is behind in a tournament played under such rules? (BTW, notice this can only be done in round robins like the leagues) Under ordinary rules we seek complications, trying to engineer a turn around. Now we hunker down trying to minimize the loss, similar to playing for a draw in chess in my imagination.
Author:  Jr4yA [ Mon May 25, 2020 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Major rules change in Japan
John Fairbairn wrote:
Bet that got a few quick clicks :)



Definitely :lol:, was expecting change about game rules !
Author:  Uberdude [ Mon May 25, 2020 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Major rules change in Japan
Jr4yA wrote:
Definitely :lol:, was expecting change about game rules !


In solidarity with the loss of liberties humans are suffering during Covid-19 lockdown, Go stones in the centre of the board are now declared to have only 3 liberties.
Author:  jann [ Tue May 26, 2020 6:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Major rules change in Japan
ez4u wrote:
What is the strategy of a player who is behind in a tournament played under such rules? .. Under ordinary rules we seek complications, trying to engineer a turn around.

You still get this when behind in multi total. And I'm not sure always aiming for realistic results is worse that laying traps in hope of big blunders.
Author:  jann [ Sat May 30, 2020 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Major rules change in Japan
On second thought, how about this system:

Two game matches, 1st game random color without komi, 2nd game reversed colors with komi = 1st result.

Mix of both worlds: one game with richer utility where margin of victory matters, and another game without this. And true draws possible.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sat May 30, 2020 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Major rules change in Japan
Contract bridge used to have total point tournaments, but discontinued them because the swings were too great. What are called victory points work much better. Generally, victory points are roughly the logarithm of (the margin of victory plus 1) + a small reward for victory. Victory points are also capped for each game or match.

In go that might work this way.

    Margin of victory - Victory points
    0.5....................................2
    1.5 - 2.5...........................3
    3.5 - 6.5...........................4
    7.5 - 14.5.........................5
    15.5 - 30.5.......................6
    31.5 +..............................7
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