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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #21 Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 8:54 am 
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Columns are major titles. Iyama is in red (he is also known as Honinbo Monyu)

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #22 Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:27 am 
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silviu22 wrote:
Nifty chart, but what does it mean?

As jlt said, this is a chart of the titles.

I think the idea of showing this chart after Iyama won the Tengen is to recall that Iyama had 7 titles before, then 7 titles again, but lately new challengers have been taking titles from him. So it seemed like things were changing but recently Iyama is coming back to dominate. Though I just checked the Judan tournament and it seems Iyama was knocked out.

Titles:
棋聖 - Kisei
十段 - Judan (Jyudan?)
本因坊 - Honinbo
名人 - Meijin
碁聖 - Gosei
王座 - Oza
天元 - Tengen

Some of the players, starting with recent title holders:
井山 裕太 - Iyama Yuta
関 航太郎 - Seki Kotaro
許 家元 - Kyo Kagen
芝野 虎丸 - Shibano Toramaru
一力 遼 - Ichiriki Ryo
張 栩 - Cho U
山下 敬吾 - Yamashita Keigo
羽根直樹 - Hane Naoki
趙 治勲 - Cho Chikun
小林光一 - Kobayashi Koichi
加藤正夫 - Kato Masao

I'll just put the chart back on the same page:
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #23 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:51 am 
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It looks like Kato Masao, Kobayashi Koichi and Cho Chikun were dominant in 1970-1999. But none of them were of the caliber of Iyama Yuta.

Also, what do the numbers mean in the column title?

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #24 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 5:13 am 
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Kato Masao, Kobayashi Koichi and Cho Chikun probably faced tougher opposition than Iyama.

月 means "month".

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #25 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 6:46 am 
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Kato Masao, Kobayashi Koichi and Cho Chikun probably faced tougher opposition than Iyama.


Maybe, maybe not. But Iyama has certainly had two advantages, one of which he shares with quite a few other players in the list.

This shared advantage is being the seeded title holder. This means that, in the major events, he has mostly had to go through zero games to reach the final, whereas his challenger has had an exhausting uphill battle. Experience of being in many title matches no doubt counts for a lot, too.

The other advantage, which he has not had to share, is that he has had to travel a lot less than his rivals. The Nihon Ki-in tries to share out high-profile games to its Osaka and Nagoya branches, instead of having everybody travel up to Tokyo all the time (the share-out with the Kansai Ki-in operates in a different way). The result has been that Iyama was often the only Osaka branch representative left in major events and so he got home berth more often than not. His rivals had to face the 300-mile slog and loss of home comforts.

I have no real idea how much impact travel and other forms of exhaustion or simple lack of experience has on pros, in all sporting fields, but I suspect it counts for far more than we amateurs tend to assume. I think the sudden collapse of Yan Nepomnyashchii in the world chess title match is a sign of how minor factors like these can build up and break the dam. Examples like Emma Radacanu seem to be usually the exceptions that prove the rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #26 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:13 am 
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Well, Kato Masao, Kobayashi Koichi and Cho Chikun had to face each other, that's why I said they "probably" faced tougher opposition, but of course I can't prove that statement, we can't ask Iyama to play against young Cho Chikun.

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #27 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:21 pm 
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Cho Chikun or Kobayashi Koichi not being of the caliber of Iyama Yuta... I don't know, but it sounds like a bit much to say, IMHO. What would have happened if one of them didn't exist? The other would have won a lot more? Or not having that rival would have meant not growing so much? History fiction.

What I find surprising, about the current time, is that after Iyama had all 7 titles, and lost some, he is again with 5. He lost some to Shibano and Ichiriki, who held 2 titles each at their best time. But now, they are back again to 0, while the 2 titles that Iyama doesn't have are in hands of newer players, not even 9 dan yet.

In a couple of years, this will change, I am sure. My guess is that Iyama will try to keep the Honinbo and the Kisei, but will have more problems with the others. Of course, "try" doesn't mean success.

As for advantages, being seeded is a big one, of course. But having to perform well in so many title games is exhausting too.

About travel... with no overseas games, and his changes in personal life (he's a dad now...), I wonder if he has gained or lost.

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #28 Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 4:25 pm 
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pajaro wrote:
What I find surprising, about the current time, is that after Iyama had all 7 titles, and lost some, he is again with 5. He lost some to Shibano and Ichiriki, who held 2 titles each at their best time. But now, they are back again to 0, while the 2 titles that Iyama doesn't have are in hands of newer players, not even 9 dan yet.
This is what interests me too. So I went back to find the Tweet from the Nihon Kiin with the chart to see what they said. And it had no comment. But on my way scrolling to find that tweet, I found another tweet discussing Iyama. And it uses this phrase "# Crown", as in 井山裕太四. I sometimes hear "triple crown" in English sports so maybe it's the same thing. Another Japanese thing (or is it just Iyama?) is to hold up fingers to count their crowns. There's a ton of pictures of Iyama holding his fingers up. He also does it when counting consecutive wins of the same title.

All this to say that I agree his Quintuple Crown is a big deal, and especially because it is a redemption of sorts. The longer he holds off the youngin's, the more of a legend he will become. The Nihon Kiin is probably making a ton of money selling Iyama signed diplomas right now.

https://twitter.com/nikkeiphoto/status/ ... 8257795072
Image

----------

Meanwhile, Iyama also was awarded with a year of chocolate.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #29 Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:28 pm 
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CDavis7M wrote:
Meanwhile, Iyama also was awarded with a year of chocolate.


This!
So many years of hard work!
Finally!

Worth it!!

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #30 Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:37 pm 
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Hope he prefers black.

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #31 Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 3:15 pm 
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When he heard he was getting a gift from Meiji, he was probably hoping for this classic treat:
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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #32 Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:00 am 
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The 77th Honinbo is in the final rounds to decide the Challenger. Yesterday I saw Tsuruyama Atsushi 8 dan playing Shibano Toramaru. Tsuruyama is one of the guys that writes the 4-character idiom column. I had never seen him play before so this was neat. It's pretty rare to get records for these games, let alone a live stream. Both of these players were 1-1 before the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFAwlKoXaX0

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #33 Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:38 am 
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jlt wrote:
Hope he prefers black.


Anything else might be chocolate-flavoured, but not chocolate.

Take care

_________________
一碁一会


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #34 Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2021 9:50 pm 
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The last six title matches have all been lost by either Shibano Toramaru or Ryo Ichiriki:
April - Shibano loses Judan
July - Shibano loses Honinbo
August - Ryo loses Gosei
November - Ryo loses Meijin
December - Ryo loses Tengen
December - Shibano loses Oza

Ryo has the opportunity to extend the streak to seven matches when he challenges Yuta Iyama for the Kisei title early next year.


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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #35 Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:29 pm 
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The 77th Honinbo League is about half over. Shibano Toramaru (2-1) is currently playing Hane Naoki (2-1). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR2xWREyrek. It's nice that they stream some of these non-Title matches.

Also, Yo Seiki is 3-0. He beat Kyo Kagen, Hane, and Ichiriki Ryo, He plays Sada Atsushi (1-2) on Jan. 10. Ichiriki is 2-1. He's playing Motoki Katsuya soon. I'm not familiar with Motoki but he is also in the Meijin League. It'll be a few month months until the Title Challenge I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #36 Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2022 1:04 pm 
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Here, take this: https://senseis.xmp.net/?MotokiKatsuya

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #37 Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:39 pm 
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CDavis7M wrote:
Yo Seiki is 3-0.


He is already 4-0. He has to play Motoki Katsuya (0-4) and Tsuruyama Atsuhi (1-3). Looks like a real candidate to challenge Iyama.
He is also the challenger of the Judan, and alive in the Oza and Gosei.

This can be his year.

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #38 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:28 pm 
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The 5th game of 7 in the 46th Kisei title match is starting soon. Ichiriki Ryo has 3 wins while Kisei Iyama Yuta has 1. I'm sure Ichiriki would like get back on the list of title holders.

I was reading a bit about the players from the sponsor Yomiuri Shimbun and they presented this list of their prior title matches. Of their 8 matches, Ichiriki has only won the 46th Tengen. But, Ichiriki has been doing well against Iyama lately, especially compared to his early matches against Iyama. I hope Ichiriki keeps getting stronger.

42nd Tengen (Bo5): Iyama Tengen 3 - 1 Ichiriki
65th Oza (Bo5): Iyama Oza 3 - 0 Ichiriki
43rd Tengen (Bo5): Iyama Tengen 3 - 0 Ichiriki
42nd Kisei (Bo7): Iyama Kisei 4 - 0 Ichiriki
66th Oza (Bo5): Iyama Oza 3 - 2 Ichiriki
46th Tengen (Bo5): Ichiriki Gosei 3 - 2 Iyama Tengen
46th Gosei (Bo5): Iyama Kisei 3 - 2 Ichiriki Gosei
46th Meijin (Bo7): Iyama Meijin 4 - 3 Ichiriki Tengen

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #39 Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2022 3:05 am 
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gazzawhite wrote:
The last six title matches have all been lost by either Shibano Toramaru or Ryo Ichiriki:
April - Shibano loses Judan
July - Shibano loses Honinbo
August - Ryo loses Gosei
November - Ryo loses Meijin
December - Ryo loses Tengen
December - Shibano loses Oza

Ryo has the opportunity to extend the streak to seven matches when he challenges Yuta Iyama for the Kisei title early next year.

Ryo beat Iyama 4-3 to win the Kisei title, thus ending the streak.

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 Post subject: Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Post #40 Posted: Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:31 pm 
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I just saw this bold tweet from Asahi Shimbun Igo (sponsor of Meijin) about Ichiriki taking the Kisei and Iyama losing his hold on the "Big Three" (Kisei, Honinbo, and Meijin). The tweet ends with 碁界は「井山1強」から新たな時代を迎えました。Something like, "The Go world has entered a new era after Iyama dominance."

What do you all think about that? I mean, the title match records don't lie -- Ichiriki has been improving against Iyama over time. But the tweet seems sensationalist. Looking at the chart of Title Holders posted above, Iyama has already lost the Meijin twice only to come back and reclaim the Big Three. It could be done again. And Iyama still has 4 titles now... But, Iyama did get knocked out of the Judan league early. It's Yo Seiki challenging Kyo Kagen. And looking at the next title match, the Honinbo, Yo Seiki is leading the league with 6-0 against Ichiriki's 4-1 record. I would reserve any bold claims against Iyama until after the Honinbo is decided. And what if Yo Seiki wins both? Does that signal a possible new era of Kansai dominance? :tmbup:

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