Life In 19x19
http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Japanese Title and League scene
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=17723		 Page 9 of 9
Author:  pajaro [ Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
John Fairbairn wrote:

Game fees according to ranks were abolished a long time ago (in 2003)


Oh, right... that was one of the points of the new system.

Now that I think about it... when Yamashita became Kisei for the first time, he was 7-dan. I think it was by the time the system changed, maybe it was also one of the reasons why automatic promotions came to play.

But I remember Yamashita was more concerned with the title than with the rank. Same could go for Kotaro.
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Quote:
maybe it was also one of the reasons why automatic promotions came to play.


Yes, it was then.

There are quite a few reasons to collect titles. One is that if you get 5 of some, you get a pension. Maybe the biggest is that you get seeded to the final the next time, an automatic big pay day again. Although the tournament scene varies over time, there are usually perks such as title holders getting invitations to invitation events or exhibitions.
Author:  kvasir [ Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Is it win twice in a row or win the same title twice? If it is twice in a row then the current situation is very special. Also if you win the Tengen, Oza and Gosei as an 8 dan is that best described with the expression "close but no cigar"?

I imagine there isn't much difference between being 8 or 9 dan while a player is a rising star that is already close to becoming a 9 dan anyway, but maybe this is something that changes if a player never progresses to the next step. Besides how it might affect the income I wonder which is more important. Winning the Tengen twice is more than almost anyone but still others will have held it more times and you only hold it for one year at a time. The 9 dan, on the other hand, is the pinnacle, it's the highest rank.

As mentioned being seeded to the final in the next edition surely increases the money payout greatly. Also there might be more time for other tournaments if you are seeded in to the final in one or more titles. Still, that is the short or medium term benefit of holding the title for one more year but once you make it you are always a 9 dan.
Author:  Ferran [ Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
The following has been handcopied. While I have the NK's file, it was way too full of extras and it was way too much work to cleanup. So, basically, there might be some mistakes.

Take care.
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Those who want to play through the game above may be interested in some comments from Japan.

Ida's play at tengen is rated a 6% drop in win rate according to the AI they use. (And that was the only mention of AI in the long commentary.) I'd guess that Ida wanted to avoid conventional, prepared AI openings, but in any case he explained that such figures are irrelevant to humans in match play.

11 to 30 is regarded as virtually a joseki sequence. This was the view of Yamada Kimio (the referee) and Muramatsu Hiroki.

Generally speaking, if the tengen player can build a moyo (hence Black 31) and get an attack (hence the shoulder-hit 35), he has succeeded. Otherwise, obviously (hence White's reduction manoeuvre 34 to 42), he has failed. The first major evaluation point in this regard came with Black 45.

This was a forking point for Black. He chose to be patient. The choice was to push in and cut at L12. However, it was assumed that Ida didn't fancy the push-and-cut because White had sabaki (coping) options at K9 or M7. Nevertheless, the press-room analysts disliked the quiet connection at 45, and though that the way the game developed confirmed their view. 45 wasn't an outright mistake but did make the game difficult for Black. The reason was that Black would like to answer 46 at 48, but then White 63 (M14) makes his shoulder hit at 35 look stupid. As a result, Black had to accept swimming in murky waters with another shoulder-hit at 47.

The next major evaluation point was after White 48 to 56, where Black has lost his corner, and so is behind on the balance of territories. That in turn explains Black's aggression at 57 and 59, to which White responded with a probe at 60. White was also pre-empting a Black move at 60 which forces White S18.

Black chose to go for capture of the White centre group with 61, but Seki was happy because he felt that capture of that group was no big deal.

The magari at 65 signalled the lunch break.

AI can't tell you all that, can it?

There were many more comments, of course, but the gist was that Black was always walking up a down escalator because he was behind on the balance of territories (Black has ippoji). White 82 and 84 were excellent moves in that they confirmed the balance in is favour and made the game even harder for Black (he is too thin in too many places because of the ippoji). White 98 and 100 likewise.

White (Seki), however, was rash with 134, the only move in the game he regretted. He said he should have played at 135. But he got away with the subsequent decisive ko because he had too many internal ko threats.

PS Two extra points:

(1) Seki Kotaro and Ida Atsushi, PLEEEEEASE!
(2) Seki was using a fan he inscribed himself saying "Believe!" 信念. Fine, though bland. But I thought the handwriting was atrocious. Cultural vandalism. The modern age, with too much reliance on computers. I suppose the compensation, as with all young people, is that he can probably move his thumbs like a fiddler's elbow on speed, but I think if you write like that you should print your fans out.
Author:  pajaro [ Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
kvasir wrote:
Is it win twice in a row or win the same title twice?


I thought it was twice in a row. I thought I had read it as "win the title and defend it next year".

According to Sensei's Library, it's win 2 of Oza/Gosei/Tengen/Gosei, in any combination. This doesn't feel right.

And according to the main source, NK's website, it's "各2期" for the previous 4 titles. My understanding is that, for "twice any time", it should be "2回", (回=counter for times), but I am not sure. I have asked 2 Japanese people. Both told me that they don't know how to understand it, they need more context about the igo world. So... I can't really tell what is the rule for promotion here.
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Quote:
I thought it was twice in a row. I thought I had read it as "win the title and defend it next year".


It is mix-and-match. Any two of the specified titles, even if different, in any order and at any time, not necessarily consecutive (though I vaguely a debate when the system was first introduced as to whether titles earned prior to the new system could count - I can't remember what was decided, but it's moot now).

Quote:
And according to the main source, NK's website, it's "各2期" for the previous 4 titles. My understanding is that, for "twice any time", it should be "2回", (回=counter for times)


I can't remember the figure now but I recall seeing lists of counters or measure words in Japanese and Chinese that claim at least (?) 300 and 600 respectively. But certainly a lot. Not all are current and they seem to be (very) slowly dying out.

期 is correct for things that have known and usually regular stages/terms/edition/phases (e.g. illnesses, sessions of parliament and lots of other things).

We have quite a few measure words in English you may not be aware of: head of cattle, brace of pheasants, pounds, pints, shots, and the pecks, bushels, gills of my childhood. And a host of collective counters. Anything for sensible people to rely too much on numbers. We had a well-known one the BBC web site in the last day or so: a photo showing a "murmuration of starlings." Inventing collective nouns is a popular English pastime. What would the collective noun be for L19 contributors: an invisibility of contributors; a black hole of contributors; a silence of contributors; a figment of contributors? Over to you :)
Author:  Elom0 [ Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
A quadruple ko of kontributers
Author:  Harleqin [ Tue Dec 06, 2022 7:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Off-topic: how do you write on a fan? Remove the axis first, so that you can lay it flat?
Author:  pajaro [ Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
I have seen videos.

Basically, they write on the paper (I don't know the proper name) before attaching it to the axis, so it's perfectly flat.
Not that they remove the paper, but it is written before it's ever attached.
Author:  pajaro [ Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Back to the Tengen:

the 5th game was played. Kotaro took black and Ida took white. The didn't begin with tengen. What a dull fuseki! Really? Fisrt move 4-4, then opposite corner and then they played a "long joseki". For a long long time, the 4th corner was free.

In the end, Kotaro won by half a move. I wanted Ida to win, because after playing tengen twice... but Kotaro deserves the win too.

Tomorrow he will be 9-dan. But I don't think nobody will ask him about what he prefers the most.
Author:  pajaro [ Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Today, first semifinal of the Judan.

Shibano and Yo Seiki played, with the Meijin advancing to the next round.

In the other semifinal... Ichiyama again! But a one day game. So fast! :D
Whatever happens, the final game will be played with the Kisei match ongoing. More Shibano-Ichiriki? Iyama taking on a busy Shibano?

BTW, the Kisei will start next 19th.
Author:  pajaro [ Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
pajaro wrote:

BTW, the Kisei will start next 19th.


My mistake: the female Kisei will start next 19th.

The Kisei has started today.

Ichiriki Ryo Kisei - Shibano Toramaru Meijin. 0-0
Author:  pajaro [ Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Nobody's commenting, but the Kisei is on course now. 4th game today and tomorrow.

Ichiriki won 1st and 3rd game, and had a good position in the 2nd game too. The whole challenge seemed to be too much for Shibano. But in 4th game, Shibano seems to be better, so who knows what will happen.
Author:  pajaro [ Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
4th game of the Kisei is over.

Ichiriki eventually won that game. At different points, AI gave better odds to both players. But, in retrospect, also considering the rest of the series, it looks like Shibano had little chances after all.

We may have Kisei for a few years.
Author:  kvasir [ Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
It might interest anyone that knows Japanese to hear about the latest establishment in Japan, it's the Ponnuki Information Bureau, which will be broadcasting an hour long program on most(?) Fridays. The second broadcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6b8He9dpr0. The bureau is also on Twitter like everything in Japan.

pajaro wrote:
We may have Kisei for a few years.

Shibano is not out yet! This is a best of 7 match.

It seemed to pay off for Ichiriki to keep a time advantage as the crucial mistakes happened when Shibano was entering byoyomi.

Ichiriki had about 20 minutes when Shibano entered byoyomi after move 140 — a huge blunder!
Ichiriki still had 2 minutes and 49 seconds when Shibano played what looked inexplicable on move 166, adding a move to his group but failing live!

Maybe Shibano thought just living on move 166 was unthinkable but black can't escape and katago claims white wins the capturing race yet black edges out a 2.5 point lead thanks to the squeeze. The players immediately started analyzing living on move 166 but first forget to add the alternative to 166 on the board and then to remove move 166 (confuse the audience). I'm not sure if it was Shibano's judgment that simply living was not good enough, that reading the entire sequence to the end and deciding it was a close game was too much, or if he favored his chances in a do or die situations.
Author:  pajaro [ Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Yes, it's a best of 7.

Yes, they will sit in front of the goban again.

And I still think that Shibano is done.

About time management, byo-yomi and blunders, I have never understood what's in a player's head when it comes to the watch. They have 8 hours each, they can think also during the other player's time, and they know that they will have to play the crucial moves in one minute. Why don't they save some time for the last stages?
Author:  kvasir [ Sun Feb 19, 2023 2:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
kvasir wrote:
[...]katago claims white wins the capturing race yet black edges out a 2.5 point lead thanks to the squeeze[...]

Eventually it finds a better way for black and it's black that captures first, thanks to a ko shape in the shared liberties. Incredible stuff!

pajaro wrote:
About time management, byo-yomi and blunders, I have never understood what's in a player's head when it comes to the watch. They have 8 hours each, they can think also during the other player's time, and they know that they will have to play the crucial moves in one minute. Why don't they save some time for the last stages?


Possibly one reason is that the clock is not visible to them during the game, that is they might not have a good idea of how long they have remaining. Still they have played many games with long time controls in similar settings, I'd have though this experience would help them avoid being in byoyomi during a critical part of the game.

I rechecked the stream when thinking about the time management and it's not only that they can't see the clock. The timekeeper is also rather lax when it comes to reading out the seconds and deducting a period. The displayed clock goes down to zero a few times, especially for Shibano, and deducts a period which is then added again. I wonder if this time keeping method hurts the Japanese players when they compete internationally and have to press the clock in time themselves instead of only picking up a stone and make enough motion toward placing it to satisfy a human timekeeper. Obviously it is a pity if a two day game was decided by some fumbling with the clock, same for 3 hour and 5 hour games.
Author:  pajaro [ Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
The winner of the NHK Cup has been announced. And I say announced because the game was actually played before, but it has just been aired in TV.

The finalists were Ichiriki Ryo Kisei and Seki Kotaro Tengen. The winner was Seki Kotaro by the smallest margin possible (W +0.5), and it was surprising for two reasons.

First reason, I expected Ichiriki to win. But according to the game records in go4go.net, Seki has a better record against Ichiriki (3-2 before this game, 4-2 now).

Second reason, is that it was a fast game and even so it was very close. The game was full of small and big kos, and I don't think they had time to calculate all possibilities, so the result might have been a surprise even for the players until the official counting.
Author:  CDavis7M [ Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Japanese Title and League scene
Sounds like a fun match. I wish there was a way to watch these games. I tried to look into subscribing at one point but NHK must have some licensing requirements to not offer the service internationally.

These games are covered by the NHK magazine with commentary but I have too many unread books and magazines as it is.
Page 9 of 9 All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/