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 Post subject: The 1986 Honinbo
Post #1 Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 5:44 am 
Oza
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I'm studying games by Takemiya with AI. The goal is to figure out how his influential style actually worked and how KataGo would deal with the moyos that often occurred in his games. I took the 1986 Honinbo title match against Yamashiro Hiroshi. Incidentally, there's some discussion on the dates. My sgf source says 1986 but a Sensei deshi found game 1 in Takemiya's book Cosmic Go where it was labeled 1985.

So far I completed two reviews. White won on both occasions. Going forward, Takemiya will win the next three games, making it 4-1 for him (and for White :)).

https://senseis.xmp.net/?Honibo1986Titl ... viewWithAI
https://senseis.xmp.net/?Honibo1986Titl ... viewWithAI

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 Post subject: Re: The 1986 Honinbo
Post #2 Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 5:56 am 
Oza
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Posts: 2396
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Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Some situations:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Moves 21 to 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . X . 1 W 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . b X . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . f O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . e . . 3 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . d . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Would you answer locally? If so, A, B or C?
Or tenuki? If so, D, E or F?
Takemiya and KataGo made a different choice.

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 Post subject: Re: The 1986 Honinbo
Post #3 Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 6:00 am 
Oza
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Posts: 2396
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Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm51 Moves 51 to 60
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O 1 . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . . . . . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . a . . . b . . . . O X . O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . f O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . e . . X . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . d . . O . . . . . . . X X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Would you play "honte" at A? Or deal with the top on a broader level? Or tenuki?

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 Post subject: Re: The 1986 Honinbo
Post #4 Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 11:26 am 
Oza
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Posts: 2396
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 358
Was liked: 1014
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 Moves 11 to 20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . c . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White has created strength in the upper left. Where would you play?

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 Post subject: Re: The 1986 Honinbo
Post #5 Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 12:40 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Moves 11 to 20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O f g . . . . . e d . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . c . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I really want to play c which helps M16 escape towards the center and is at the border of White's moyo.
* a feels too close to Black's strong corner;
* b induces f, which helps White make a good shape and removes Black's possibility to play g;
* d makes territory but induces White e and weakens M16.


This post by jlt was liked by: Knotwilg
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 Post subject: Re: The 1986 Honinbo
Post #6 Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 4:51 pm 
Lives in gote

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Nice positions, and thank you for the post.

Knotwilg wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm21 Moves 21 to 30
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . X . 1 W 2 . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . b X . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . f O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . e . . 3 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . d . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



For me it's a tossup between 'd' and 'f'. My eye is drawn to 'f' to work well with 23, but I know in the age of AI the territory often wins. 'd' has the advantage that it attacks white's base in the corner.

Knotwilg wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm51 Moves 51 to 60
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O 1 . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . . . . . . X X X O O . . |
$$ | . O O X . a . . . b . . . . O X . O . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . f O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . e . . X . . . O . X O . . |
$$ | . . d . . O . . . . . . . X X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



In a game I would play 'a' without thinking. Maybe Takemiya has a grand plan, but I certainly don't.

Knotwilg wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 Moves 11 to 20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . e d . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . c . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




Of the choices given ('a'-'d') I'd take 'd', but I think 'e' moves in the same direction but grabs a bigger corner. Combined with 'b' and a light reduction from the centre leaves White without a lot of points.


This post by pwaldron was liked by: Knotwilg
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 Post subject: Re: The 1986 Honinbo
Post #7 Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 2:34 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2396
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 358
Was liked: 1014
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 Moves 11 to 20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . c . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For much of the game, AI wants to play B. My interpretation: it makes territory, it reduces potential territory, it keeps sente, and if White plays there, there's aji in the corner. As pwaldron pointed out, the move improves White's shape too, but probably the lone stone in the moyo can be treated lightly if the moyo is reduced.

Takemiya's opponent played C.


This post by Knotwilg was liked by: jlt
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