Life In 19x19 :: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion

Also... Is Surma 2p all right? He's been off-radar for a while, AFAIK.

A propos this topic, does anyone have a view on what western professionalism in Europe, compared with what went before, has done for:

1. The players
2. The fans
3. Go in general

Ditto in the US.

I'd hate to think it's been a non-event, but that's the impression I'm left with.

Unless I'm way wrong, Ilya Shikshin is about a tournament away from promotion to 4p. The guy's on a rampage.

Valid are only wins against professionals (even games, not online).

But I don't see any of them defeating the Asians.

Ryan Li seems to be stronger than the Europeans, too. (I reckon that's why they didn't invite him into the league this time).

They must have quietly changed the rules, because they state:

Quote:

Valid are only wins against professionals (even games, not online).

The promotion rules are here: Professional Promotion System in Europe.

I might reply more fully to John later, but I largely agree with gennan. Just adding that were it not for the EGF pro system Mateusz would have continued with his career path of training to become a pilot, instead of deciding full-time on Go was a viable choice. I'm not sure that was the best choice for him personally for long-term career prosects, but it's certainly the better choice for the ~~European~~ World (he went to LATAM Go Congress) Go community.

silviu22 wrote:

Ryan Li seems to be stronger than the Europeans, too. (I reckon that's why they didn't invite him into the league this time).

Or it could be because he has just had a baby, which is why he also announced a reduction in the frequency of his output for his own NYIG youtube channel.

Am I right in thinking that none of the homegrown professionals in the US are making Go their primary profession?

Aside from the language angle, there's a very different feel to these commentaries than I've seen from the Asian professional organizations. It's much less formal, bordering on irreverent. That's not better or worse--I'm not even sure I prefer it--but it probably appeals to young audiences.

If I go to eurogofed.org or usgo.org, will I know that (a) these tournament games are streaming weekly, or (b) that Michael Redmond and Chris Garlock have their series on Sunday? (Answers: (a) not that I can tell,

Also, I find it much easier to follow commentaries made with a physical board. Yes, a filmed real board.

The advantage of a filmed real board is that putting magnetic stones takes more time than clicking on a mouse, thus giving the audience more time to understand.

I can't tell if it was edited today, but I've just checked and the link about the 3rd EGPL is on top of the news. The link to the stream is easy to see on the EGPL page.

silviu22 wrote:

But I don't see any of them defeating the Asians.

Open your eyes then. http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/86624. It was unlucky for Ilya that he beat this world top 50 player in the first round of an international tournament which happened to have 64 not 32 players, thus missing the EGF pro system's rules of what counts as a worthy international win (only round of 32 and later).

Ilya and Mateusz also scored several wins against Asian pros in the Chinese C league. There's lots of Asian pros they can beat, just the ones you play in the final 32 of international tournaments are the top Asian pros, rather than weak or average or above average but not super amazing ones.

So, with eyes wide open, I will make the following claim: none of the current European pros will make it to 5p under the current European promotion system.

Author:	Ferran [ Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
Unless I'm way wrong, Ilya Shikshin is about a tournament away from promotion to 4p. The guy's on a rampage. That said, this year has been obviously short on tournaments. Would it be possible to make the League a qualifier? OR things like the Transatlantic, at least. I mean, it was a joint effort of the Federation itself! I'm actually ambivalent, since there are things around all this I'm not comfortable with (then, I'm not even an EGF member, so my opinions are one of those things everyone has), but it seems logical that if Pandanet and OGS tournaments this autumn qualify, the Transatlantic should and the League is almost about par (then again, it's a friendly match; maybe the contestants would't like it to become professionalized). Also... Is Surma 2p all right? He's been off-radar for a while, AFAIK. Take care.

Author:	John Fairbairn [ Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
A propos this topic, does anyone have a view on what western professionalism in Europe, compared with what went before, has done for: 1. The players 2. The fans 3. Go in general Ditto in the US. I'd hate to think it's been a non-event, but that's the impression I'm left with.

Author:	Uberdude [ Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
Ferran wrote: Also... Is Surma 2p all right? He's been off-radar for a while, AFAIK. He's busy: he has a wife and baby, an online go school and shop, he's made some videos for the London Go Centre recently, and a few minutes ago replied to someone asking about lessons on Facebook.

Author:	jlt [ Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
He is not completely off the radar. He got the fourth place of the European championship last month. https://www.eurogofed.org/egc/2020.html#brackets

Author:	gennan [ Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
John Fairbairn wrote: A propos this topic, does anyone have a view on what western professionalism in Europe, compared with what went before, has done for: 1. The players 2. The fans 3. Go in general Ditto in the US. I'd hate to think it's been a non-event, but that's the impression I'm left with. I don't follow the EGF pros very closely, and the AGA pros even less. 1. But I think that the pro status does something for the EGF pros. It gives them extra benefits to generate some income. For example, it may help to sell books that they might write. And if they start a go school, it probably helps to attract students and it sets a baseline expectation for tuition fees. And EGF pros can partipate in pro tournaments with decent prize money from sponsers (CEGO or otherwise). And they get invited to be game commenters in go tournaments (for example this amateur game commentary and this EGF pro game commentary). 2. Also for European fans it is nice to have EGF pros. The EGF pros are much more accessible than the Asian pros. If you want to have pro presence in a larger European go event (for game comments, simultaneous games etc.), EGF pros cost less than Asian pros (because travel expenses are much lower), which benefits budgets of large European events. EGF pros may also be be less demanding overall and they tend to speak better English, so I think organisers, participants and fans benefit. And the EGF professional system is sponsored by CEGO, so it is not subsidised by EGF membership fees (contrary to what some European players think). 3. Also in a wider scope (outside Europe) it helps to connect the international go community. I've heard that fans in China are quite interested in the EGF pros. If a Chinese go magazine puts a picture of EGF pros on the cover and features an article about them, their sales go up (this might not work as well with AGA pros, because they look Asian). And there are also some Chinese pro matches where EGF pros are invited, such as this. Also, I think the Transatlantic Pro Match was a success, despite some controversy around a time-out. So I wouldn't call Western professionalism a non-event (at least not EGF professionalism). I'm hoping for more publicity effort for more exposure and more popularisation, but overall I'm not disappointed.

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Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=17915	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Javaness2 [ Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
I think the system in Europe does have a pretty good visibility. You have a regular online league now, and accompanying commentary on Twitch. I don't get to watch it myself, but it seems popular enough as they keep pressing on with their events. In the US the system doesn't really seem to have done anything. The professionals haven't organised much from what I can see.

Author:	silviu22 [ Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
Ferran wrote: Unless I'm way wrong, Ilya Shikshin is about a tournament away from promotion to 4p. The guy's on a rampage. They must have quietly changed the rules, because they state: Quote: Valid are only wins against professionals (even games, not online). The promotion rules are here: Professional Promotion System in Europe. Also, 4p is as far as he'll ever go unless they change the rules. Because to get over 4p, you have to win many games in international tournaments, which I don't see it happening for Ilya. He is the best European pro, so he was bound to get to 4p. Pavol Lisy, Matheusz Surma, Artem Katchanovskyi and Ali Jabarin will get there too, it's just a matter of time. But I don't see any of them defeating the Asians. Ryan Li seems to be stronger than the Europeans, too. (I reckon that's why they didn't invite him into the league this time). They could have easily expanded it to include all the AGA pros but they seem to have opted to leave Ryan out this time.

Author:	Uberdude [ Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
silviu22 wrote: But I don't see any of them defeating the Asians. Open your eyes then. http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/86624. It was unlucky for Ilya that he beat this world top 50 player in the first round of an international tournament which happened to have 64 not 32 players, thus missing the EGF pro system's rules of what counts as a worthy international win (only round of 32 and later). Ilya and Mateusz also scored several wins against Asian pros in the Chinese C league. There's lots of Asian pros they can beat, just the ones you play in the final 32 of international tournaments are the top Asian pros, rather than weak or average or above average but not super amazing ones. silviu22 wrote: Ryan Li seems to be stronger than the Europeans, too. (I reckon that's why they didn't invite him into the league this time). Or it could be because he has just had a baby, which is why he also announced a reduction in the frequency of his output for his own NYIG youtube channel.

Author:	Uberdude [ Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
I might reply more fully to John later, but I largely agree with gennan. Just adding that were it not for the EGF pro system Mateusz would have continued with his career path of training to become a pilot, instead of deciding full-time on Go was a viable choice. I'm not sure that was the best choice for him personally for long-term career prosects, but it's certainly the better choice for the ~~European~~ World (he went to LATAM Go Congress) Go community.

Author:	hyperpape [ Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
John Fairbairn wrote: A propos this topic, does anyone have a view on what western professionalism in Europe, compared with what went before, has done for: 1. The players 2. The fans 3. Go in general Ditto in the US. I'd hate to think it's been a non-event, but that's the impression I'm left with. Recently, I've caught a lot of live games over the weekends during the European champsionship and the professional league. They feature commentary from the pros who aren't playing that day. Without even seeking them out, I've simply opened OGS and found links to games on twitch--that means video streams from a pair of commentators. John will be happy to know that Ali and Pavol seem to comment live without consulting AI, and only check themselves with AI when the game has wrapped up. Aside from the language angle, there's a very different feel to these commentaries than I've seen from the Asian professional organizations. It's much less formal, bordering on irreverent. That's not better or worse--I'm not even sure I prefer it--but it probably appeals to young audiences. I think the European side has recently been doing more than North America. However, both organizations could do more to publicize things in a systematic way. If I go to eurogofed.org or usgo.org, will I know that (a) these tournament games are streaming weekly, or (b) that Michael Redmond and Chris Garlock have their series on Sunday? (Answers: (a) not that I can tell, (b) depends on whether the news article is at the top of the feed today today). I can't complain too much--my only contributions are an occasional email about a dead link, or out of date info, etc. on the AGA website. silviu22 wrote: They must have quietly changed the rules, because they state: Quote: Valid are only wins against professionals (even games, not online). The promotion rules are here: Professional Promotion System in Europe. I think it's fair to imagine an implied "merely" in the rules. Surely the Asian countries are giving promotions for wins in the Samsung Cup as well.

Author:	hyperpape [ Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
Uberdude wrote: I might reply more fully to John later, but I largely agree with gennan. Just adding that were it not for the EGF pro system Mateusz would have continued with his career path of training to become a pilot, instead of deciding full-time on Go was a viable choice. I'm not sure that was the best choice for him personally for long-term career prosects, but it's certainly the better choice for the ~~European~~ World (he went to LATAM Go Congress) Go community. Am I right in thinking that none of the homegrown professionals in the US are making Go their primary profession?

Author:	Ferran [ Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
Uberdude wrote: silviu22 wrote: Ryan Li seems to be stronger than the Europeans, too. (I reckon that's why they didn't invite him into the league this time). Or it could be because he has just had a baby, which is why he also announced a reduction in the frequency of his output for his own NYIG youtube channel. Thanks. You beat me up to it, and I couldn't post it yesterday. For those interested. Also, congratulations! I'm glad on several levels, here. I'm glad for Li AGA-p, and I'm also glad he can continue forward as a pro. I suspect that having a wife trained under the... formal? system helps. A strong player would already do, but having gone through the system she might be able to offer methods that people who've learned "on the side" in the West haven't experienced. I don't know their relative levels, nor do I care, but they're basically each other's uchi deshi. I'm glad the European system works. I do find things I'm wary of, but it's not designed to please me, and it seems to be doing a decent job. Also, I don't see the EU pros all that worried about ranks or proceeds. I mean, obviously, it does play a part. But... They play in a very minority discipline; if they wanted fame and riches, they have the brains to go for other things. That the EGF has adapted the system for online play is logical, right now. I'm somewhat surprised of the reaction time, and I do think the system should allow for the Transatlantic [], even if it happens retroactively. But, anyhow, I'm reasonably satisfied. Again, not that the system is for me, so me being satisfied or chewing my frustration doesn't matter a smidge. Regarding Surma 2p... I kinda know about his professional activities (school, store...), but I'd assume the other pros also have that. So it's kinda quirky, for example, that he hasn't joined, for example, any edition of the EPL. I have to assume the other players also have their side projects (I know leCalvé has an online school, for instance; there's not much new material, even blog posts, but I assume he's busy behind the scenes [+]). Anyhow, he's well; that's all that matters. His activities and priorities are his own. From the outside, the AGA pro system feels undead. Take care. [] Delenda est Carthago [+] I have to assume that. After almost a year of reduced events, it otherwise doesn't make sense not to reinforce one's professional online presence.

Author:	Ferran [ Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
hyperpape wrote: Am I right in thinking that none of the homegrown professionals in the US are making Go their primary profession? Don't hold me on that, but I think something along the lines was mentioned some months ago in a separate thread. That and the cost of living in different countries. Take care.

Author:	Ferran [ Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
hyperpape wrote: Aside from the language angle, there's a very different feel to these commentaries than I've seen from the Asian professional organizations. It's much less formal, bordering on irreverent. That's not better or worse--I'm not even sure I prefer it--but it probably appeals to young audiences. I've tried folowing those a couple of times. The rhythm throws me off. I can follow the game or listen to the commentators, not both. So I choose the game (I can follow OGS comments). I think it's a bit that they're more used to talk with an opponent or partner that to an audience. I might be off, too. Also, I find it much easier to follow commentaries made with a physical board. Yes, a filmed real board. Take care.

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Author:	explo [ Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
hyperpape wrote: If I go to eurogofed.org or usgo.org, will I know that (a) these tournament games are streaming weekly, or (b) that Michael Redmond and Chris Garlock have their series on Sunday? (Answers: (a) not that I can tell, I can't tell if it was edited today, but I've just checked and the link about the 3rd EGPL is on top of the news. The link to the stream is easy to see on the EGPL page.

Author:	jlt [ Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
Ferran wrote: Also, I find it much easier to follow commentaries made with a physical board. Yes, a filmed real board. The advantage of a filmed real board is that putting magnetic stones takes more time than clicking on a mouse, thus giving the audience more time to understand.

Author:	Ferran [ Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
jlt wrote: The advantage of a filmed real board is that putting magnetic stones takes more time than clicking on a mouse, thus giving the audience more time to understand. Yes. I also suspect my brain considers it more "real". And there's a "process" to putting the stone that a mouse doesn't quite substitute. Top camera on a goban also works, for me, and it's quite faster than club magnetics. Take care

Author:	Ferran [ Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
explo wrote: I can't tell if it was edited today, but I've just checked and the link about the 3rd EGPL is on top of the news. The link to the stream is easy to see on the EGPL page. The page for the European Online Women's Go Championship 2020 is being updated promptly and well; it's very responsive. I'm not following the League any longer. Some of it is personal reasons, some of it is that the website doesn't make it any easy to follow. I think I mentioned that in the threads for past editions of the League. To put a current example, last stage of the women's tournament ended yesterday. The results are already tabulated, the paitings for the next round are already known, and so are the dates (not the timetable, though, yet). In contrast, the Pro League still sports the "billboards" for last weekend's games. We have to assume we'll have games next weekend, but... In September the ... tiebreak? was announced less than 24 hrs before the game IIRC, out of schedule. I wrote it there but, frankly, I'm way too tired of it all to dig for it. Take care.

Author:	silviu22 [ Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
Uberdude wrote: silviu22 wrote: But I don't see any of them defeating the Asians. Open your eyes then. http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/86624. It was unlucky for Ilya that he beat this world top 50 player in the first round of an international tournament which happened to have 64 not 32 players, thus missing the EGF pro system's rules of what counts as a worthy international win (only round of 32 and later). Ilya and Mateusz also scored several wins against Asian pros in the Chinese C league. There's lots of Asian pros they can beat, just the ones you play in the final 32 of international tournaments are the top Asian pros, rather than weak or average or above average but not super amazing ones. My eyes are very open. I remember that game as I follow all the European pros very closely. Yes, I do know they can beat some Asian players, but I meant the "Strong Asians" that make to the last 32 (I thought that was implied). In order to make it to 5p, Ilya would need 3-5 big wins in these later stages. And from what I have seen so far, even the Japanese players have a very tough time in these tournaments. Ichiriki Ryo seems to be the only one with some success. Shibano Toramaru and Iyama Yuta routinely lose in the first round. And time is running out for Ilya. He just turned 30, which for top go players marks the start of the decline. So, with eyes wide open, I will make the following claim: none of the current European pros will make it to 5p under the current European promotion system. They might get 1-2 HDPs if they get some very lucky draw, but not 5 HDP. I think their most likely chance is to somehow play against American players in these tournaments. Ilya had a good chance in that particular tournament (MLily 4) because his opponent in the last 32 was a Korean amateur. So that was a big missed opportunity to get a HDP. He would need several of these to get all 5 HDPs necessary to get a 5p ranking.

Author:	Ferran [ Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Shikshin 3p a hair's breadth from promotion
silviu22 wrote: So, with eyes wide open, I will make the following claim: none of the current European pros will make it to 5p under the current European promotion system. Well, as I understand the current rules, you only get HDP through classification, not games, and it doesn't even explain what "the world pro tournaments" are. Right there it might be a good idea to change the rules and clarify them. If a "world pro tournament[S]" is by invitation, does it count? Because they tend to be smaller, so top16 becomes reachable. And so on. OTOH, once we get there... Maybe we might want to have single games ammount to something? I dunno. Do we want higher dans in Europe? Because the moment you have single games count, sooner or later players will have enough victories in their satcher and will increase in rank, little by little. That's how we got the scores of 9p we have now. Or maybe we want a more classical system? Say, at most an 8p per country, a single godok... sorry, a single 9p in the whole association? It would be ironic, at least, but closer to the real proportion. I don't know what's better for go, European Go, or professionals, in whichever order. Take care.