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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #221 Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 5:08 am 
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Ferran wrote:
. . . Indeed. What I was observing these days is that everyone seems to choose his (IME, mostly *his*) pet game, or maybe most accessible sgf or... to comment. But there doesn't seem to be something like "Well, this is the game that put X on the spotlight" or... Damn, I don't even think I've found comments on Rui Naiwei's Kuksu, or more than one or two about... Fujisawa Rina's Al Cup? I'm quoting from memoery, but I think that was it . . .


I mean, and the closest thing I know to what you describe, is they used to have My Most Memorable Game from 2002 to January 2016, however 2002, 2003 and 2004 are missing :sad:


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Post #222 Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 5:46 am 
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That would be cool, although I'm not sure how deep the entries would be.


Biographically it is very sketchy, but the book is fascinating in one unique way. Most of the book comprises commented games in which the player explains why the game was special to them. E.g. Sugiuchi Kazuko losing to Takagawa at the peak of his powers by just 2.5 points was a landmark game for her (understandably enough) and it also contributes to a big theme in the book, which was the then recent rise in female go power that was making them formidable opponents (nigate) for the men.

But there were sidelights that showed a more conventional feminine slant, such as Kobayashi Izumi playing against her father Koichi, and wearing the mantle of her mother of course. Or Chinen Kaori playing in a maternity smock in a title match not long before giving birth (father was Yo Kagen). I always had a soft spot for her because she kept racking up title wins and stayed at 3-dan throughout. She was also used as a national poster girl in adverts to attract foreigners when Japan was selling itself to the world on the occasion of the 2000 economic summit in Kyushu (she is from there). I had hoped to meet her there but she was by then based in Tokyo, and I was diverted away from Okinawa. But I still remember the smiling face on the huge ads as I travelled round the rest of the country.

However, what really makes the book stand out for me is the second part where each pro gives a couple of examples of next-move problems from their own games. Except that they are not really problems. They are more to do with on-the-board satori moments in the lady's career, the sort of thing I don't think I've seen in men's go.

Here's an example. This is from Kanno Naomi 3-dan, who has a notable go pedigree. She was Black and knew the focus was on her moyo on the lower side. But she didn't know how to surround it directly (the answer to that is A, AI shows), so she played something else. It was an a-ha moment for her as she experienced playing with kiai, or fighting spirit. He choice was actually a rather bad move according to AI, but the point was she apparently learnt something deeper about go that day.



Another example, this one from Kin En, mother of new pro Jo Bunen.



White had just played at the triangled point and Kin said the conventional way to play would be to answer that. But she also noticed that White's kamae (as opposed to moyo framework) at the top was thin and Black's position in the lower right was strong. Her a-ha moment was realising she could therefore seize the initiative (as opposed to sente). Appreciating the difference would be a big step in anyone's go career - even for a pro!

There is a general sense in this book that female pros had not been asserting themselves properly, and it was moments like these two cases that illustrated why they were becoming nigate for the men.

However, let me conclude this sample with a more conventional example which could make a reasonable claim to be up there with a famous example from Yi Se-tol. This one is by Tanimiya Ayako 2-dan, wife of Tanimiya Teiji. This is a case where one says "ah-a!" at the end rather than at the beginning. (All three examples here are instances of female pros having their go careers interrupted by marriage to male players, incidentally). Black to play.



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Post #223 Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 12:09 pm 
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Ferran wrote:
Indeed. What I was observing these days is that everyone seems to choose his (IME, mostly *his*) pet game, or maybe most accessible sgf or... to comment. But there doesn't seem to be something like "Well, this is the game that put X on the spotlight" or... Damn, I don't even think I've found comments on Rui Naiwei's Kuksu, or more than one or two about... Fujisawa Rina's Al Cup? I'm quoting from memoery, but I think that was it.
Which commentaries are you talking about? Videos online? Or in books/magazines? These days there are more and more low effort videos fueled by AI. We will soon see compilation AIs that can analyze the games, create variations, automatically generate commentary, and generate speech and the video to go with it... like the guy on Reddit who wanted to make a video about the Blood vomiting game can't be bothered to spend $80 for copies of Go Review and instead asks for piracy.

Anyway, I guess it's hard to know which games were truly memorable unless you hear it from the player themselves. Firsts seem to be memorable in general. First challenge, first title, first big defeat. But many memorable games may just be the environment and not the competition. Fujisawa Rina posted on Twitter about the Pair Go tournaments she would play in as a kid.

Is making the cover of Go World memorable? Maybe the first time... Fujisawa Rina and Ueno Asami have multiple photo shoots commemorating their victories. Xie has been on a cover recently too I think. Iyama is probably best friends with the photographer.

Besides Iyama's 7 title spotlight books I haven't seen any books about non-retired players. There are a few books written by players themselves. Cho U has a book but I believe it is less about Go and more about life philosophy. Michael Redmond has a similar philosophy style book and there is not a single Go diagram in it. Though Redmond does have a biography with pictures and diagrams. I pulled it out and his diagrams are mostly from his teaching at NHK but he does have one game and its's his half point win against Cho U back in 2010 (in the Agon Kiriyama cup) when Cho was Kisei. But from the whole book it seems like Redmond's most memorable aspects of Go are his teaching.

We might be waiting a long time to see Fujisawa Rina's book. I'll pre-order Sumire's book for my grandkids.

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Is it only memorable if you have to get dressed up?
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Post #224 Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 3:00 pm 
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Kanno Naomi is married to Kanno Masashi. Masashi studied under Kanno Kiyonori.

Is Kiyonori the father of Masashi (and the father in law of Naomi)?

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Post #225 Posted: Wed May 04, 2022 3:25 pm 
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Also,

> Sugiuchi Kazuko losing to Takagawa at the peak of his powers by just 2.5 points was a landmark game for her

This statement confuses me. Both Waltheri and Go4Go date this game to 1981. Surely Takagawa was not at his peak over twenty years after losing the Honinbo, and well over a decade after winning the Meijin. Are these sites misdating the kifu?

There might have been a confusion between the 7th "Old" Meijin (1968) and the 7th "New" Meijin (1982), since Waltheri places the game in the Meijin preliminaries. The exact date given by both sites is 1981-09-24.

Hmm, with my common sense hat on I can see that it's doubtful that Kazuko, born in 1927, would be experiencing a "landmark game" in her mid-50s.


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Post #226 Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 1:49 am 
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CDavis7M wrote:
Which commentaries are you talking about? Videos online? Or in books/magazines? These days there are more and more low effort videos fueled by AI. We will soon see compilation AIs that can analyze the games, create variations, automatically generate commentary, and generate speech and the video to go with it... like the guy on Reddit who wanted to make a video about the Blood vomiting game can't be bothered to spend $80 for copies of Go Review and instead asks for piracy.


I saw that one. The question was unfortunate, but I might see a couple of points were it might be... unavoidable? I got my first Go World issues back when e-commerce for private citizens didn't exist. Scanned and put on a text-based FTP. I possibly have those files somewhere, yet. I couldn't buy them until years later, and I did. Both sets. Same with GoGoD. I have to assume some people have similar difficulties even these days. 80 USD for a single issue you want is a considerable expense in some budgets. Yes, even if you have an internet connection. I've met people who can't pay for a sleeping place but who *need* a phone as a safety line, or to call each other when there's a business opportunity (even if it's scrap metal). I don't know if that poster fit a profile that would make explain his recoil at the $80 tag. And, yes, sure, he might simply be spoiled.

What I was talking about, anyhow, are any sort of commentaries which are actually commented. I don't really like comments from a computer screen (specially some programs are so damn... visually flat.. I simply can't recall what they said barely some seconds before; my visual brain doesn't have anything to latch on to [*]), but I can follow those if they're actually commented, and not a simple retell of the percentage with a background of chill out music. Besides that... anything goes. Blogs, magazines, videos, sgf's... I might even try to go for a audio-only podcast, see if I can follow it. Some methods make information easier to follow, but what I want is the information, not the method.

Quote:
Anyway, I guess it's hard to know which games were truly memorable unless you hear it from the player themselves.


Which are *personally* memorable, sure. Some games rise above the background on their own, though. The ear reddening game, the blood vomiting game, the atomic bomb game, the 7th Kisei, the fourth AlphaGo... And, sure, some are more significant than others, but I kinda double dare you to say any of the games in "400 years of Go" is NOT significant. There doesn't seem to be anything similar with women's Go. Yet?

I tried to find the book Mr. Fairbairn mentioned, but I couldn't find it, neither at Amazon-JP nor at the NK's site. Mind you, I searched for "30 years" and "women's go", since that was what I had. Yes, in Japanese.

Quote:
Is it only memorable if you have to get dressed up?
Image


That third image is quirky... That's a young girl's kimono, isn't it? I'd have thought that once they reached pro status, specially after the very beginning, they'd "grow" their kimono somehow. Obvioslu not to "old grandma" standards, but a bit more. Wasn't... Kita Fumiko? the one who had to dress like a nun for a while?

Take care.


[*] Incidentally, that's why I followed Sibicky religiously when he was at the Center, but I've mostly swapped to Dwyrin now. At least he sometimes uses a real board, and his usual program is a bit more visually compelling.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #227 Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 2:27 am 
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I tried to find the book Mr. Fairbairn mentioned, but I couldn't find it, neither at Amazon-JP nor at the NK's site. Mind you, I searched for "30 years" and "women's go", since that was what I had. Yes, in Japanese.


It's 一碁一生.


Quote:
That third image is quirky... That's a young girl's kimono, isn't it? I'd have thought that once they reached pro status, specially after the very beginning, they'd "grow" their kimono somehow. Obvioslu not to "old grandma" standards, but a bit more. Wasn't... Kita Fumiko? the one who had to dress like a nun for a while?


The go women go to a specialist kimono shop where they can buy or hire, and most of all get advice on what to wear and how to put it on. Bit like men's kilts over here. I wouldn't dare comment on styles, except that often the choice is not a matter of looking "cool" (ugh) but of reflecting the seasons.

With Kita, I suspect you're recalling that she had to dress like a boy with a shaved pow - a Hayashi family tradition.


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Post #228 Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 1:40 pm 
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I read an interview about Asami’s Senko Cup victory now she’s had time to absorb it. There were some interesting insights.

One was that she now does a physical workout (“19 minutes of Hell”) and has found it has made a difference.

More interesting is that since February she had been keeping notes on her international rivals. She noted for example that Yu sticks with 2 fuseki patterns as Black and one as White. She also made notes on their abilities in other phases, rather like the radar charts discussed elsewhere here. But one item she adds is whether their play is “AI like”. It would nice to know how she uses that info.

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Post #229 Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 1:00 am 
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Ueno Asami vs Yuki Satoshi is coming up soon, in the Agon Cup preliminaries. The winner will qualify into the main tournament.

Yuki Satoshi is perhaps best known for his run of wins in the NHK Cup, starting in 2009, and for his dominating win of the 2010 Tengen over Yamashita Keigo.

Also, the possibility of Fujisawa Rina vs Iyama Yuta in the Tengen is on the horizon. Fujisawa has to beat Cho Riyu, and Iyama has to beat either Cho U or Ida Atsushi.

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Post #230 Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 3:20 am 
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bugcat wrote:
Fujisawa has to beat Cho Riyu, and Iyama has to beat either Cho U or Ida Atsushi.


Sorry, according to https://gotoeveryone.k2ss.info/news/jp/tengen/48/ it is Otake Yu for Fujisawa Rina (Cho Riyu was her last opponent in this tournament).

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Post #231 Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 10:06 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:

More interesting is that since February she had been keeping notes on her international rivals. She noted for example that Yu sticks with 2 fuseki patterns as Black and one as White. She also made notes on their abilities in other phases, rather like the radar charts discussed elsewhere here. But one item she adds is whether their play is “AI like”. It would nice to know how she uses that info.


More interesting, to me, is that before February she didn't know those kind of things about their rivals. I thought that everybody knows basic things about their opponents, at least before important games. It must be a lot of work, and you can't keep track of everybody.

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Post #232 Posted: Thu May 12, 2022 4:52 am 
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According to GTE, Asami is playing against Eiko today in the second round of the Shinjin O.

The winner will play against Terada Shuta, who is not particularly strong.

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Post #233 Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 1:38 am 
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The Go Seigen Cup, international tournament for women, should be happening now. I saw that the Japanese players had it scheduled, but since a few days ago, those games aren't there anymore.

In case it was a mistake in the NK website, I checked WBaduk. No games.

Has the tournament been cancelled? Looks like it, according to

https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/goseigen/archive.html

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Post #234 Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 1:49 am 
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Update: Ueno won.

Two other women could join her in the third round of the Shinjin O. Moro Arisa will face unremarkable but quite highly rated 3p Takei Taishin. Kato Chie will face less highly rated opponent Abe Yoshiki.

Takei has 276 GoR points over Moro. Abe has 163 over Kato.

If Moro wins, she'll almost certainly be knocked out by Otake Yu. However, if Kato wins, she'll come up against Sakai Yuki -- he was a Children's Kisei and a former Shinjin O semifinalist, but Go Ratings currently has him rated barely higher than Abe. So if Kato can beat Abe, she may have a good shot at defeating Sakai and even being able to enter the semifinals.

The prospect of a Shinjin O semifinal featuring both Ueno and Kato isn't ridiculous. They're in separate brackets, though, so we won't get to see them play against each other.

Male players Otake Yu and Oomote Takuto have also entered the third round. One male-male game is still left to play in the second round (Sakai Kentaro vs Koike Yoshihiro).

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Post #235 Posted: Sat May 14, 2022 12:43 pm 
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This looks like a long shot to me, but hey, why not. Let's see what happens, it can be fun to follow it and see how far they can go.

But Ueno vs. Chie would be the final, not the semifinal. If Chie defeats Sakai, that would put her in the 3rd round (quartefinal). Then, fight someone who comes from Sumire's side of the chart.

Many things can happen and the tournament just started. The solution, in a few months.

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Post #236 Posted: Sun May 15, 2022 5:54 am 
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pajaro wrote:
The Go Seigen Cup, international tournament for women, should be happening now. I saw that the Japanese players had it scheduled, but since a few days ago, those games aren't there anymore.

In case it was a mistake in the NK website, I checked WBaduk. No games.

Has the tournament been cancelled? Looks like it, according to

https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/goseigen/archive.html

It has been postponed.

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Post #237 Posted: Sun May 15, 2022 9:28 am 
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Was a reason for the postponement given?

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Post #238 Posted: Sun May 15, 2022 9:36 am 
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bugcat wrote:
Was a reason for the postponement given?


Due to the covid situation, getting worse in China.

I don't know more details.

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Post #239 Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 11:35 am 
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Ferran wrote:
I was wondering... besides the odd YouTube video or blog, is there any media on Japanese Amazons in Western languages? Books? I know some time ago I started checking for Kita Fumiko and similar players, and I could only find Kifu. Do we have any monographs on, say, Fujisawa Rina, Xie Yimin... I think back when, there was some info on Rui Naiwei, but... There's quite a void, isn't there?

You spoke a little too soon. Just today (May 16) a new book on Fujisawa Rina was published. It is a game collection on her path to 4 crowns with self-commentary and commentary by Takao Shinji. It has articles and pictures too. https://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4839979820/

I saw it being advertised by the commentators (Suzuki Shinju and Rin Kanketsu) during the Gosei tournament final between Ichiriki Ryo and Yo Seiki.

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Post #240 Posted: Mon May 16, 2022 1:30 pm 
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CDavis7M wrote:
You spoke a little too soon. Just today (May 16) a new book on Fujisawa Rina was published. It is a game collection on her path to 4 crowns with self-commentary and commentary by Takao Shinji. It has articles and pictures too.


If I'm the trigger I shall endeavour to speak more often.

Take care, and thanks

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