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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #41 Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2021 12:32 pm 
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The Hiroshima Aluminum Cup (or Wakagoi) is a tournament for young players. 30 years and under, 7p and under.

The prelims just finished (https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/wakagoi/016.html). Although the tournament is mixed, the prelims are not, so it's another chance to see how young female players do against each other. Same would go for the Viking Army, if they had a thread... :lol: Important too, games are fast. 30 sec/move + 10*1 min byo-yomi. NHK style, I think. And all games for each group are played the same day. That's 3 games, maximum, if you win your group.

Winners were Ueno Asami 4p, Ueno Risa 1p, Kato Chie 2p and Tsukada Chiharu 1p. For those wondering, Nakamura Sumire 2p lost in the first round, and Fujisawa Rina 5p didn't play. She won last year, and I don't know if that means that she will be in the main tournament, or she won't play at all.

What I find interesting is that some players who don't usually have many chances could compete, make some noise and have a chance to play better players in the main tournament. Asami is above all of the other players, but if you check Risa's, Chie's and Chiharu's stats for this year, you see that they are better than last years'. That's good, and to improve even more, you need to play even more.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #42 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:40 am 
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Next games:

Ueno Asami 4p vs. Sotoyanagi Sebun 3p (the video's description says 3p, the Nihoon Kiin's page says shodan...), for the 46th Shinjin-O.

Fujisawa Rina... 6th dan [I don't think the NK's page is up to date] vs. Ueno Asami... Again, the video says 3p, but both SL and the NK say 4p (this very year). Maybe it's still not official?. 40th Women's Honinbo. Xie Yimin to comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #43 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:48 am 
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Rina is 5-dan, Asami 4-dan and Sebun is 3-dan.

But what I find interesting is that there seems to a trend (glacier-like, admittedly) in Japanese publications to omit the dan ranks. This is not new. The use of dans in publications has mainly been a Nihon Ki-in thing. Publications before theirs, i.e. before 1924, routinely omitted dans (and often even omitted surnames).

They may be getting the message at long last that dans don't really mean anything as regards game records. Indeed, under the Japanese system you normally get promoted as you get weaker. For example, you get to X+1-dan from X-dan usually by just winning a largish number of games over a period of many years. Just this week Suzuki Isao got to 8-dan on wins after about 23 years. As you get older you decline and end up getting pitted against new 1-dans and so on, so of course you do pick up a few wins here and there - but you are certainly not getting any stronger.

Dans only have meaning in things like pension rights and how near the top of the table you sit at parties - things that don't interest readers of game records. The only thing about dans that interests amateurs is whether they themselves can call themselves 1-dan. But that's just delusional psychology.

For these and other reasons I have been inclined to start omitting dan grades in the GoGoD database. Haven't quite got there yet, but...

And don't get me started on the ABOMINATION of using p instead of dan. The relevant letter in Japanese, Korean and Chinese is D. By all means distinguish pros from amas, but use D and A, not P and D.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #44 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:18 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
But what I find interesting is that there seems to a trend (glacier-like, admittedly) in Japanese publications to omit the dan ranks.


I think I read somewhere that it came from the new promotional system. I'm not sure, but...

a. Change in Japan tends to be... not hasty. To the point I suspect our Western cause-effect sense gets jammed.
b. In a certain way, any dan rank is simply a title. Some arts have a first tier of dans granted on proficiency, and another (say, from 6d on) granted on, basically, social status (teachers, branch heads... it depends). As long as you're aware of it... In fact, I know a koryu that has only 5 dans (for proficiency) and then reverts to the makimono / menkyo system.

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The only thing about dans that interests amateurs is whether they themselves can call themselves 1-dan. But that's just delusional psychology.


It's a smelly, juicy carrot. If it helps, go for it. If it makes you break your ankle while you try to steal it from a farmer's field, stop that and find another one.

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And don't get me started on the ABOMINATION of using p instead of dan. The relevant letter in Japanese, Korean and Chinese is D. By all means distinguish pros from amas, but use D and A, not P and D.


Okay, you made me laugh with that one, and I sort of see your point. But it's shorter.

Maybe we should use the old system? Don't shogi players use it, still? 1-3d for amateurs, 4-6 for good players, 7-9 for living treasures.

Take care.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #45 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:38 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
And don't get me started on the ABOMINATION of using p instead of dan. The relevant letter in Japanese, Korean and Chinese is D. By all means distinguish pros from amas, but use D and A, not P and D.


I have been using p myself because it's what I see here and there. Monkey see, monkey do :oops: Not that I really care, because aside from a few exceptions, all players that we talk about are professional players. Adding rank to the name is in the tradition of adding san, sensei, or any other sign of status. Japanese tradition only? Or common in more Asian countries? I don't know.

Back to the topic, as commented too in another post, today Xie Yimin beat Cho Chikun in the last prelim of the Meijin league. 2 more wins and she will be the first female player in one of the big leagues. Her opponent will be Tsuneishi Takashi. He was beaten by Ueno Asami for a seat in the Judan, so sorry, but he will lose again in a last prelim game.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #46 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:55 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Eiko Nyu 3p (I think Eiko is first name)


No, Nyu is her first name, her surname. And it is now official policy in Japan to put the surname first even when writing the name in our letters. Americans please, note.


I am mystified why for Asian names they don't simply adopt the unambiguous convention of writing the name in Roman characters as Surname comma Given Name (for example):

Nyu, Eiko

This convention would preserve the correct name order, and give Westerners a very strong clue. Since from our own school records, medical charts, etc. We all know what the comma means. True enough, it is easier to use when presenting the name, than when using it in a sentence, but for listing Book Authors, who the black and white players are, etc. Isn't it just a good idea?

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Post #47 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:59 am 
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hzamir wrote:
I am mystified why for Asian names they don't simply adopt the unambiguous convention of writing the name in Roman characters as Surname comma Given Name...This convention would preserve the correct name order, and give Westerners a very strong clue. Since from our own school records, medical charts, etc. We all know what the comma means. True enough, it is easier to use when presenting the name, than when using it in a sentence, but for listing Book Authors, who the black and white players are, etc. Isn't it just a good idea?
If the name were put into a box, I think that makes sense. And I have seen it that way. On the Nihon Kiin profiles actually. They also use capitalization, which I like and see in formal situations (author, signatory, etc). Some people have more than 3 (nonhyphenated) names in the full name.
Quote:
井山 裕太(イヤマ ユウタ / IYAMA, Yuta)
一力 遼(イチリキ リョウ / ICHIRIKI, Ryo)

What bothers me is that Western format will swap the names but doesn't care to indicate when the Japanese "first name" is actually a title (which doesn't get swapped) and not the given/personal name.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #48 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:05 am 
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Ferran wrote:
Maybe we should use the old system?.

Which old system? The one starting with "defending clumsily" and "playing as if stupid" on up to "clear understanding of the mysteries" and strongest of all "able to sit"?

John Fairbairn wrote:
The only thing about dans that interests amateurs is whether they themselves can call themselves 1-dan. But that's just delusional psychology..
Such low aspirations. I am aiming to play as if stupid.

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Post #49 Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:01 pm 
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Such low aspirations. I am aiming to play as if stupid.


Nice! We haven't had a game of Mornington Crescent here for a long time, so let's indulge ourselves again. But with a superior twist. Instead of stations you have to find allusions that follow on from the previous one, preferably with a go theme. My go!

Allegedly quoting Napoleon a British diplomat arguing with Clemenceau in Paris scornfully said, "Du sublime au ridicule, il n'y a qu'un pas." Clemenceau flashed back: "Oui, le Pas de Calais."

For those who find it bemusing, the key words so far are 'stupid' and 'sublime'. And to keep things on track, we'll ban the Helsinki Double-shunting Manoeuvre, OK?

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Post #50 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:15 am 
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CDavis7M wrote:
Which old system? The one starting with "defending clumsily" and "playing as if stupid" on up to "clear understanding of the mysteries" and strongest of all "able to sit"?

The Japanese one, not the Chinese. I leave that one to Fairbairn senpai...

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Post #51 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:22 am 
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The Japanese one, not the Chinese. I leave that one to Fairbairn senpai...

It's both, though the Kansai Ki-in seems to be the only one to use regularly (in diplomas).

This is Go Cluedo (TM)!

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Post #52 Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:06 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
It's both, though the Kansai Ki-in seems to be the only one to use regularly (in diplomas).


You know you just made me glee silently, right?

And only silently because I live in a city and I don't want to be carried to a white, soft, room.

Take care. Thanks

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Post #53 Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2021 9:16 am 
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Ferran wrote:
Ueno Asami 4p vs. Sotoyanagi Sebun 3p, 46th Shinjin-O.


B+R; Ueno 4p wins


Take care

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Post #54 Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:05 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Nice! We haven't had a game of Mornington Crescent here for a long time, so let's indulge ourselves again. But with a superior twist. Instead of stations you have to find allusions that follow on from the previous one,
I had to look this game up. I'm not sure how the game is played in the first, second, or third place. Was Osaka the third place?

Maybe best to derail into another thread

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #55 Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:13 am 
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Ferran wrote:
Ueno Asami 4p vs. Sotoyanagi Sebun 3p, 46th Shinjin-O.

B+R; Ueno 4p wins





I am surprised with this match.

The first game looked like a win for Ueno. But in the end, she lost.

The second game, at first, looked even. Then, black (Ueno) attacked an isolated group on the right. She is quite a fighter, so I thought that was the game. I couldn't watch all the game (it was holiday in Spain) but I could take a look after white survived that attack. Black had an ugly dragon, so... no way black could win. But some hours later (or a few moves), surprise, surprise, black was clearly going to win. There was a black dead group (3 stones) with a lot of aji in the center that in the end made the trick. White was overconfident, IMHO.

So game 3 will decide it. I think that Ueno might have more chances because of the way she won game 2, but we'll see.

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #56 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:23 am 
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damm...

Asami lost. And although for me it's hard to count, I don't think it was never close. She went with her usual attacking style. Sebun defended well, and got a great win. Actually,
he made a big kill in the end

so he really deserves the title. Congrats to him.

I have read some criticism on-line about her style. Very aggressive, and she doesn't study yose properly. I don't know who says this, but reminds me of Kato Masao. She is very young (born in 2001, not even 20 yo when I write this), so this might be a maturity issue.

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Post #57 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:27 am 
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The female Honinbo finished today. It's a best of five match, but Fujisawa Rina won 3-0 to Hoshiai Shiho.

It was Hoshiai's first title match, and although it was going to be difficult for her, she didn't do bad. She put up a very decent fight, and according to AI, she had good chances in every game. The first one, it was B+0.5. And in the last one, in the second half of the game, she had over 90% chances of winning. But Fujisawa is not the player she is because she gives up easily. So... better luck next time for Hoshiai. Her results say that she will have more chances soon.

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Post #58 Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 6:32 am 
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Today, Fujisawa Rina beat Son Makoto. Or Sun Zhe. He is Japanese but perhaps his family is Chinese. I don't know.

About the game: it was the 2nd round of the main event of the Judan. Actually, the first game for her. It is always important and nice to win a game in any tournament. But this is special. It was the first win of any female player in one of the seven big tournaments in Japan. First ever. Some other women have qualified before, but none has won a game. Luckily, although the main events are still mainly a man's club, women are getting further. At least, the final rounds of the prelims usually have more and more women. And in this case, the Judan, Ueno Asami will play in the main event too. BTW, after today's game, if I am not wrong, Fujisawa will keep her seat next year too.

In the end, it's all about time and numbers.

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Post #59 Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:44 am 
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pajaro wrote:
Today, Fujisawa Rina beat Son Makoto. Or Sun Zhe. He is Japanese but perhaps his family is Chinese. I don't know.
About the game: it was the 2nd round of the main event of the Judan. Actually, the first game for her. It is always important and nice to win a game in any tournament. But this is special. It was the first win of any female player in one of the seven big tournaments in Japan. First ever.
I didn't know that this would be the first women's win in a main section of a major title. That's a bit surprising to me actually, considering how well the top women do. Maybe my perception is a bit skewed as a result of the Nihon Kiin's coverage. I wonder if there are any published statistics, but I have to imagine that the coverage and success of these women are boosting interest of young players. I think all games and activities are more fun with a larger playerbase and both women and men.
----------
Here's the steam for anyone interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EhJqbGcqQs
And the bracket: https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/match/jyudan/060.html

Since Fujisawa won, she will play either Ida Atsushi, my new favorite player to follow, or Sada Atsushi (Kansai).

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 Post subject: Re: Amazon army
Post #60 Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:56 am 
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About the game: it was the 2nd round of the main event of the Judan. Actually, the first game for her. It is always important and nice to win a game in any tournament. But this is special. It was the first win of any female player in one of the seven big tournaments in Japan.


I don't think this is correct. It is correct that Fujisawa was the first but that was in the Tengen in 2019. She beat Takahashi Masumi.

I have a memory of giving, on that occasion, a list here of all the times women had reached the finals of a Big 7 (then 12 as I recall). And I think I also made the point that on all these occasions it was (regrettably) one of the minor (i.e. non-league) titles.

The special milestone this year is that it is the first time two women have made the finals of the same event.

It is surely just a matter of time. The first lady to reach a final was Honda Sachiko in 1979 (she died last year, so missed this special milestone). It has taken a long time to get this far, but I think we can see that the pace is accelerating fast.


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