Life In 19x19 :: Losing on time

This isn't pertaining to a *pro* game, but still in the ballpark...

I was observing an amateur tournament game at the Seattle Go Center, and the player who was slightly ahead went into byoyomi. The process there was to briefly pause the clock (they were old analog chess clocks), place 25 stones in the bowl lid, and use those stones to play out the five minute byoyomi period. If the player gets through his 25 stones, the process is repeated as necessary.

Well, I noticed that the player in byoyomi was not grabbing stones from the lid that were specifically set aside for the byoyomi period, but instead grabbing from where he was used to - the bowl. He was hitting the clock, but his byoyomi stones weren't being played. After this happened five or six times, I grabbed the bowl and put it out of his reach, and he instantly realized what he had been doing. He got frazzled, couldn't play the remaining stones in time, and lost. His opponent, who is a good friend of mine, got mad at me for interfering, saying I wasn't the tournament director and it was not my right to get involved. I told him I didn't think he would want to win that way, but he was still mad.

My question is whether an irregularity had happened when the player's byoyomi stones were first set aside. How did that happen? My suspicion is that some player, probably your friend, made a ruling at the table, which is not allowed. Only the TD makes rulings. If your friend told the player to set 25 stones in his lid but did not explain why, and then your action caused the player to get frazzled, together you produced an impossible situation. IMHO, the player was certainly entitled to relief because of the irregularities.

I also suspect that the TD was at fault for not explaining the byoyomi procedure before play began. An impossible situation!

When you saw what was happening, your correct course was to notify the tournament director. The TD should, IMHO as a TD, have intervened. Also, when your action frazzled the player, you should have called the TD on yourself. I would have ejected you from the playing area, at least temporarily.

My question is whether an irregularity had happened when the player's byoyomi stones were first set aside. How did that happen? My suspicion is that some player, probably your friend, made a ruling at the table, which is not allowed. Only the TD makes rulings. If your friend told the player to set 25 stones in his lid but did not explain why, and then your action caused the player to get frazzled, together you produced an impossible situation. IMHO, the player was certainly entitled to relief because of the irregularities.

I also suspect that the TD was at fault for not explaining the byoyomi procedure before play began. An impossible situation!

- There was no irregularity in the process. The player knew exactly why the 25 stones were set aside, and it was common knowledge how this works. He simply was just focused on the board and unconsciously pulled stones from the bowl out of habit.

Then, IMHO, your correct course of action was to do nothing.

Bill Spight wrote:

Then, IMHO, your correct course of action was to do nothing.

Yep. Of course the intentions were good, and I know it sucks to be the player making that mistake (as it does to forget to press your clock, or lose track of how many moves are left until the time control in chess), but in tournaments spectators really have to stay 100% out of the game.

Back to the wider topic: I forget if I've told this story here before, but I had a tournament chess game where my opponent offered a draw, I accepted, and then he revealed that he had run out of time but I hadn't noticed. Oopsie! (His behavior may not have been gentlemanly but it was 100% legal.)

Author:	pajaro [ Wed May 12, 2021 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Losing on time
Time is an important part of a game. You think different when you have a lot of time, or when you are rushed by the countdown. But pros master this, as they master every aspect of the game. More or less. It was famous a game lost by Cho Chikun in the #50 Oza (2002), against O Meien. 2nd game of the match, both players in byo-yomi, Cho ahead and fully concentrated, didn't realize that O had already played and after the countdown, he lost. Very shocking, can't even hold his tears. In the end, he lost the match 3-2. A second case happened in the #14 Hiroshima Alluminum Cup (2019). Nakamura Sumire vs. Hane Ayaka. Players must hit the clock. Already in yose, Ayaka forgets to hit the clock. Sumire knows, and when she plays, she pushes the button (that was already down). Some people say that Sumire looks at it, hinting "push your button". Again, countdown and Ayaka loses on time. She doesn't understand what happened, another pro tells her (not the referee, there is no referee) and she accepts the mistake and the loss. 2 rookie players that perhaps don't know very well what to do. But recently, in this era of youtube, I saw another game. #77 Honinbo prelims. Kobayashi Koichi vs. Cho U. Also, no referee, only recordkeeper, and the players must hit the clock. Again in yose, Kobayashi forgets to hit it and Cho inmediatly points to it. The game goes on, Cho wins and all is fine. Nobody wants to win like this. I can understand that it's up to the player how to use your time, and it's your responsability to play when you have to. Even more in a big game. I don't really know the protocol, if Sumire could say something or not. But Cho and Kobayashi, more veteran players, do whatever they want to. Who is going to complain? And, btw... Kobayashi is Cho's father in-law

Author:	mhlepore [ Thu May 13, 2021 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on time
This isn't pertaining to a pro game, but still in the ballpark... I was observing an amateur tournament game at the Seattle Go Center, and the player who was slightly ahead went into byoyomi. The process there was to briefly pause the clock (they were old analog chess clocks), place 25 stones in the bowl lid, and use those stones to play out the five minute byoyomi period. If the player gets through his 25 stones, the process is repeated as necessary. Well, I noticed that the player in byoyomi was not grabbing stones from the lid that were specifically set aside for the byoyomi period, but instead grabbing from where he was used to - the bowl. He was hitting the clock, but his byoyomi stones weren't being played. After this happened five or six times, I grabbed the bowl and put it out of his reach, and he instantly realized what he had been doing. He got frazzled, couldn't play the remaining stones in time, and lost. His opponent, who is a good friend of mine, got mad at me for interfering, saying I wasn't the tournament director and it was not my right to get involved. I told him I didn't think he would want to win that way, but he was still mad.

Author:	thirdfogie [ Fri May 14, 2021 12:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on time
Here in the UK, it is common practice during byoyomi to place the lid upside down on top of the bowl to ensure that only the byoyomi stones are used. The stones may or may not be placed in the lid: if one is in the "tupperware division" (JF), a flat plastic lid is not very good at holding stones. In my opinion, spectators should never intervene unless requested by both players. This can lead to anguish when a player who is clearly ahead is about to lose on time unnecessarily or if the players fail to notice that one player is out of time and his opponent is about to to run out as well. If both run out of time, is the rule that the first player to notice the situation wins? I prefer to declare "no result" in that case, but the tournament director will not like that. Spectators should help out sometimes. For example, if the position has been disturbed and the players ask for help restoring it, or if they don't know whose turn it is to take a ko and they ask for guidance. These things tend to happen with weaker players, and it is surely OK to help them. At the Leamington Club (before lockdown), we played with 30-minute sudden death time limits. This avoided having to manage byoyomi stones, but farcical situations still arose. I agreed with this policy and look forward to further farces in future.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri May 14, 2021 3:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on time
mhlepore wrote: This isn't pertaining to a pro game, but still in the ballpark... I was observing an amateur tournament game at the Seattle Go Center, and the player who was slightly ahead went into byoyomi. The process there was to briefly pause the clock (they were old analog chess clocks), place 25 stones in the bowl lid, and use those stones to play out the five minute byoyomi period. If the player gets through his 25 stones, the process is repeated as necessary. Well, I noticed that the player in byoyomi was not grabbing stones from the lid that were specifically set aside for the byoyomi period, but instead grabbing from where he was used to - the bowl. He was hitting the clock, but his byoyomi stones weren't being played. After this happened five or six times, I grabbed the bowl and put it out of his reach, and he instantly realized what he had been doing. He got frazzled, couldn't play the remaining stones in time, and lost. His opponent, who is a good friend of mine, got mad at me for interfering, saying I wasn't the tournament director and it was not my right to get involved. I told him I didn't think he would want to win that way, but he was still mad. When you saw what was happening, your correct course was to notify the tournament director. The TD should, IMHO as a TD, have intervened. Also, when your action frazzled the player, you should have called the TD on yourself. I would have ejected you from the playing area, at least temporarily. My question is whether an irregularity had happened when the player's byoyomi stones were first set aside. How did that happen? My suspicion is that some player, probably your friend, made a ruling at the table, which is not allowed. Only the TD makes rulings. If your friend told the player to set 25 stones in his lid but did not explain why, and then your action caused the player to get frazzled, together you produced an impossible situation. IMHO, the player was certainly entitled to relief because of the irregularities. I also suspect that the TD was at fault for not explaining the byoyomi procedure before play began. An impossible situation!

Author:	schrody [ Fri May 14, 2021 7:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on time
Bill Spight wrote: My question is whether an irregularity had happened when the player's byoyomi stones were first set aside. How did that happen? My suspicion is that some player, probably your friend, made a ruling at the table, which is not allowed. Only the TD makes rulings. If your friend told the player to set 25 stones in his lid but did not explain why, and then your action caused the player to get frazzled, together you produced an impossible situation. IMHO, the player was certainly entitled to relief because of the irregularities. I also suspect that the TD was at fault for not explaining the byoyomi procedure before play began. An impossible situation! The way I understood it is that the player knew how Canadian overtime works but was just having one of those scatterbrained moments. I've seen that happen to experienced tournament players as well. I'd be fine with intervening if this was a pair of novices, even if I would be breaking the "spectators shall not intervene" rule, however, I'm not sure what would be the best course of action when two experienced players are concerned. If a player is aware of the rules then it's their own responsibility to make sure they follow them. On that note, how would a TD handle such a case, i.e. a player accidentally taking the stones from their bowl? Would the player be punished in any way? The EGF rules, for instance, don't seem to mention anything on this topic. In terms of rules, I'm also curious about the original topic. If a player plays a move before the opponent presses the clock, is that, technically speaking, a legal move? According to the EGF rules: "A move is completed by pressing the clock with the same hand that played the move." I usually remind my opponents to press the clock but occasionally I chance upon someone that keeps forgetting and continuously reminding them becomes a bit of a chore so I just continue playing.

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Author:	mhlepore [ Fri May 14, 2021 7:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on time
Bill Spight wrote: When you saw what was happening, your correct course was to notify the tournament director. The TD should, IMHO as a TD, have intervened. Also, when your action frazzled the player, you should have called the TD on yourself. I would have ejected you from the playing area, at least temporarily. My question is whether an irregularity had happened when the player's byoyomi stones were first set aside. How did that happen? My suspicion is that some player, probably your friend, made a ruling at the table, which is not allowed. Only the TD makes rulings. If your friend told the player to set 25 stones in his lid but did not explain why, and then your action caused the player to get frazzled, together you produced an impossible situation. IMHO, the player was certainly entitled to relief because of the irregularities. I also suspect that the TD was at fault for not explaining the byoyomi procedure before play began. An impossible situation! Bill - I was giving a high-level view of what happened. But to address some of your points: - There was no irregularity in the process. The player knew exactly why the 25 stones were set aside, and it was common knowledge how this works. He simply was just focused on the board and unconsciously pulled stones from the bowl out of habit. - The TD was called (by me) after I moved the bowl aside. There was a brief discussion as to whether my testimony could be used to determine how many stones he should be credited for playing in byoyomi. It was determined that no testimony would be used, and he was just out of luck. - When I describe him as being frazzled, it was not because of my action, but because he couldn't believe he'd let this happen. He was literally in tears after the game, and thanked me for doing what I could. Sorry I didn't mean to hijack the thread.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri May 14, 2021 7:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on time
mhlepore wrote: - There was no irregularity in the process. The player knew exactly why the 25 stones were set aside, and it was common knowledge how this works. He simply was just focused on the board and unconsciously pulled stones from the bowl out of habit. Thanks. Then, IMHO, your correct course of action was to do nothing.

Author:	dfan [ Fri May 14, 2021 8:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on time
Bill Spight wrote: Then, IMHO, your correct course of action was to do nothing. Yep. Of course the intentions were good, and I know it sucks to be the player making that mistake (as it does to forget to press your clock, or lose track of how many moves are left until the time control in chess), but in tournaments spectators really have to stay 100% out of the game. Back to the wider topic: I forget if I've told this story here before, but I had a tournament chess game where my opponent offered a draw, I accepted, and then he revealed that he had run out of time but I hadn't noticed. Oopsie! (His behavior may not have been gentlemanly but it was 100% legal.)

Author:	Bill Spight [ Fri May 14, 2021 9:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on time
dfan wrote: Bill Spight wrote: Then, IMHO, your correct course of action was to do nothing. Yep. Of course the intentions were good, and I know it sucks to be the player making that mistake (as it does to forget to press your clock, or lose track of how many moves are left until the time control in chess), but in tournaments spectators really have to stay 100% out of the game. Back to the wider topic: I forget if I've told this story here before, but I had a tournament chess game where my opponent offered a draw, I accepted, and then he revealed that he had run out of time but I hadn't noticed. Oopsie! (His behavior may not have been gentlemanly but it was 100% legal.) Contract bridge has much more complex laws than go, and infractions occur often. Even so, the TD who notices an infraction is not supposed to intervene unless called, or unless the infraction violates propriety or ethics. As a bridge director I saw a lot of weird stuff.

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