The various co-morbidities suspected of afflicting go during the coronavirus pandemic - AI, competing video games, death of paper publishing, L19 torpor, etc - seem to be confirmed by latest figures from the Offices of National Go Peanut Counting in Japan and Korea for 2021.

Top of the Japanese tournament money rankings for the 11th time on the trot, Iyama Yuta made only 134 million yen ($1.2m, £86k) in the year.

A LONG way down in 2nd place was Ichiriki Ryo with 44m yen ($383k, £285k). In 10th place was Motoki Katsuya with 11m yen ($98k, £73k). Peanuts. What do you make in 400th place? Ah, you are lucky - you get to sweep the peanut shells out of the baseball stadiums.

The relative health of women's go can be seen in 5th and 6th places for Fujisawa Rina (31m yen) and Ueno Asami (24m yen). But of course taking the money women earn out of the equation makes the men's earnings look even more paltry.

The full top ten is: 1. Iyama Yuta, 2. Ichiriki Ryo, 3. Shibano Toramaru, 4. Kyo Kagen, 5. Fujisawa Rin, 6. Ueno Asami, 7. Kono Rin, 8. Seki Kotaro, 9. Hane Naoki, 10. Motoki Katsuya. Interestingly, 9 out of those 10 are Japanese. Another sign of the times? Foreign players don't flock to Japan any more?

Some women in the other major go countries are lapping up success, too. Top Korean female Ch'oe Cheong got a half million yuan cheque for winning the Go Seigen Cup in China (that's about $78k). But most of the men are struggling in the same way as in Japan. Sin Chin-seo made about $1.3m as the world's top player, but a very big portion of that came from playing in the China Weiqi League.

The Korean top ten was 1. Sin Chin-seo, 2. Pak Cheong-hwan ($657k), 3. Sin Min-chun, 4. Pyeon Sang-il, 5. Ch'oe Cheong (top female; $208k), 6. Kim Ch-seok, 7. Kang Tong-yun, 8. Yi Tong-hun, 9, Yi Ch'ang-seok ($120k), 10. O Yu-chin (female; $118k).

So, on the whole, the Koreans are doing better than the Japanese, but quite a lot of them are getting the biggest portion of their pay-packets from the Chinese leagues (men and women). What will happen to them when Evergrande becomes Nevergrande? However, the Koreans are also still sponsoring several major international events, which the domestic players do well in. But does it feel right that the world's top player makes only just over a million dollars? And atop such a friable pyramid?

Of course, it is possible to add cashew nuts and sometimes macadamia nuts to your peanuts with off-the-board earnings. But even those are becoming scarce. When did you last see a spin-off book for winning the Meijin? This week Nobuta Shigehito was promoted to 7-dan after 22 years at 6-dan. I mention him only because he was a pupil in the illustrious Kitani school. Yet he's the most typical kind of pro: has never even appeared in title match, or got near one. Even a 9-dan is not what it was. It's no surprise 9-dans are now offering online lessons.

The situation was similar

in 2020 https://www.statista.com/statistics/117 ... o-players/

in 2016 https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments ... essionals/

Some music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRDgihVDEko

Talking about money... there's something I've always wanted to know, and never had the chance to ask.

Fees.

My understanding is that, just for playing an official game (only official?), the players were payed. If it is a first prelim game, the amount is whatever, if it is a league game, it is whateverelse, and so on. The event, the rank of the players is important too. Or not. I don't know. Then, at some point, for financial reasons, the fees disappeared.

When a sponsor funds a tournament, I guess it pays the prize for the winner, the runner-up... and so on. Even the winners of the prelims must get some money. I am taking tennis as a reference. But I really don't know.

Ichiriki is the second in the list, but this year he lost his two titles. So he must be paid for all his other wins or title games. On the other hand, Sumire has an excellent record as a 2-dan, including many wins in the big tournaments, but she wasn't promoted to 3-dan based on prize money. Nishioka Masao (former) 2-dan and with a record of 18-13 in 2021, is now 3-dan, based on prize money. Perhaps it's all the prizes while he was 2-dan.

So... I am just curious as to how this works

I no longer dig into details and may have missed some developments, but the last major shake-up at the Nihon Ki-in was in 2003, when the Oteai was abolished. The reason for the shake-up was a cash crisi at the NK, and the reason for the crisis was the drain on its resources caused by (a) the Oteai with its guaranteed quota of games (where game fees were almost the only types of payment) and (b) the payment of game fees based on dan ranks, which were also grossly inflated. This latter factor was also putting too much of a strain on the pension pot, pensions being linked to dan grade.

In the very first Oteais, in the 1920s, there were only around 40 players, with no 8 or 9-dans. By 2003 there were well over 300 players with a quarter of them at 9-dan (and only 10 1-dans).

Measures were tried before abolition of the Oteai. For example, fees were cut by 70% in 2001.

The 2003 change tried a different tack. Apart from abolishing the Oteai itself (it had no title matches and was no longer attractive to sponsors, and as it was all about promotion it was increasing the problems exponentially), the NK decided to pay game fees not according to rank but according to the levels within the tournament. That is, the first preliminary paid less than the second preliminary, and so on. Furthermore, high dans no longer had the automatic right to enter a tournament at a high level. They retained their current positions, but unlike before they could then be demoted to a lower level (as many were; indeed it was hoped that this process would also precipitate many early retirements). Promotion rules were also changed, and made much stiffer, but in any case rank no longer affected payment of game fees. Under the old system, where game fees depended on grade, the fees a 9-dan were typically four or five times higher than for a 1-dan.

The Oteai promised a player at least roughly a game a week. Under the new system, based mostly around knockouts, but also leagues with promotions and demotions, you had to win a game to qualify to play another one. And to earn a higher fee you had to climb up as to a higher level.

I am not aware of any significant changes to the principles behind all that, but as I say I haven't been looking for them.

Korea basically followed the Japanese system, and that resulted in one notable farce. Kang Hun resigned a 1995 game after just two moves in the Kuksu. He was ill but turned up to "play" so that he could ensure his game fee.

I'm not sure of the system in China, because local organisations sponsor players, and also much focus was put initially on winning money in international events, a large proportion of which went to the China Weiqi Association (from memory, I think 25%). But in both China and Korea, apart of course from their great international success and thus a boost in sponsorship, there has been a major structural change in that there are now many team events. When these were first mooted in China, the idea was to treat then like football, with transfers and local sponsorships. I don't know how this has worked out in detail. I think it was detrimental in Korea because it led to too many Mickey Mouse tournaments where short-term sponsors just wanted their 15-minutes of fame on tv. It seems to have worked out well in China, to the extent that China is now a milch cow for players from Korea (especially) and Japan. Foe these foreign stars, it may be that the payments are closer to appearance money than game fees.

As to people like Sumire not appearing to pile up the bucks despite winning lots of games, I'd imagine that one important factor is that game fees will depend on the tournament. The Big 7 pay far more than the rest, and the Kisei pays more then the Meijin and Honinbo, which pay more than the rest. In fact they are ranked in money order. It may also be the case that the money lists are based on official games only.

Another thing to bear in mind is that the NK is something of a swan. It appears to float serenely across the water, but under the surface its feet are moving like a jig fiddler's elbows. A few years ago most of its sponsorships were more or less long term. Nowadays, total income may the same but more and more of the sponsors are short-term or potentially short-term, so the admin people have to work extra hard to keep floating.

I already knew a bit about the financial problems in the NK, inflated rank system and so on. But I can't put figures to the problem, because only prize money for the winner is public. At least if you can't read the NK web in Japanese. When you say that with the Oteai all players were guaranteed to play at least one game per week, does this mean that at least with 4 games per month any player can make a living? I understand that we are talking about minimun income here. I also remember than in Hikaru no Go, in Hokuto Cup prelims, when Ochi asked for another game, the sponsor said "it's no problem, we will cover the game fee...". And when Akari asked Hikaru to go and teach at her new go club, she was worried about money. The manga is fiction, of course, but I guess that these kind of details are realistic.

About Sumire's and Masao's (non)promotion: I noticed because it was their first game of the year, I already knew they were playing, and knew that Masao was 2-dan. Then, when they played (already 2022), he was 3-dan. I read about the promotions shortly after, and remembered all of this. I get that the Big 7 pay more. And for that reason, I don't understand why she hasn't been promoted. She made it to the Kisei C league, A prelim in the Judan, and from memory, she picked some wins in other tournaments (I am not including the female only ones). I don't really care about her promotion. With the new system, ranks matter little. You win, you advance. You lose, you drop positions. Simple as that. I just wanted to understand how things work.

No, nowhere near. The reason for stressing the Oteai is that it cost the NK about $600,000 a year, which is a lot of money from the admin side, but peanuts from the viewpoint of a player. Most players would supplement their typically meagre earnings from games by teaching or writing. It happens less now, though I don't know by how much, but rather in the way that you might have a games afternoon at school (games like football or cricket, I mean) many Japanese companies would have a go or shogi afternoon for staff hosted by a local pro. Another common source of income might be patronage of a local player by a local big noise, or a group of players in the local community, usually in return for private games, or for attendance by the pro at the local club. E.g. a former head of Toyota hired a well known local female player. Foreign players in Japan sometimes likewise get support from businessmen in their native countries, but in return have to make frequent trips back home. In the case of a group, said local players would not only support the local player's club but might do things like publish a collection of his games, getting local companies to act as subscribers. All this sort of activity went into slow decline from around 1980 when the Japanese economy took a downturn - which I think it has yet to recover from.

I can't remember the precise figure now, but I believe around less than 10% of pros can make a living from tournaments alone. And whatever figure it is, it is probably still decreasing.

It's a world of vast extremes. But no different from chess or even bigger sports. There are major league baseball players who earn millions of dollars every summer while some players are good enough to play alongside them (though usually briefly) yet earn barely enough to live on and have to take winter jobs for the rest of the year.

If I recall correctly, except for the very top pros, pros in Japan usually didn't make enough money from game fees alone. The lower ranked pros especially gave lessons privately or in clubs. With the decline in amateur go in Japan also the number of people wanting lessons declines. If a pro has some popularity from winning a title, or serving as a commentator on TV, the pro might be able to produce a book (tsumego, tesuji, handicap go, etc.). However fewer amateur players also means fewer book sales. The internet probably affects things, too, just as it does in the West.

You can just skim through the Nihon/Kansai Kiin profiles and see how many pros work beyond the tournaments. Yo Seiki teaches at Nakatsu Go Center. Sada Atsushi has a children's Go dojo. I just stumbled upon a book by Tsuruyama Atsushi when I was looking at Amazon's list of top/best/wanted Go books, and he also does newspaper/web/YouTube content. Yamashita Keigo has multiple books, I always see his name. Cho U also has a bunch of books and the 4x4 Go puzzle. Yanagisawa Satoshi has a YouTube channel. Many other pros do too. Kobayashi Izumi seems to involved with numerous and various Go projects. I don't get the impression that she's paid for all of this but she's always posting about something.

All this to say that it seems to me that actually playing Go and earning game fees is hardly what a pro does "for a living." They are all teaching Go. So the fact that tournament winnings are not nearly as high as could be hoped for means little. It would be sad to hear if students were drying up. And I know the pandemic affected in person class, but everyone hobby that I know about was dramatically boosted during the pandemic. I expect that Go dojos will be going strong.

Wasn't it more like 4 - 12 games a year?

I think this is just nostalgia. The last time oteai was a thing was in 2003, before todays 1 dans were even born.

But who said/believes the Oteai ran all year? At its height the Oteai ran twice a year on a weekly schedule. This would mean about 16 games a year, or maybe 20 for those who made the playoffs. But then it was almost the only show in town.

In more recent times the contrast has been with a KO tournament where you can get knocked out in Round 1 and be twiddling your thumbs for a long time thereafter. In the Oteai you kept going even if you lost every game, hence too many purposeless games. Getting a meal ticket (of sorts) while crippling the whole organisation?



Seems odd to describe the NK's efforts to get rid of the Oteai as nostalgia. Or do you mean nostalgie de la boue?

Are you talking about the 1930s? When exactly was this? It is quite short of promising anyone at least roughly a game a week.




I am not convinced that the pros were being paid in the way you describe for the Oteai games but I am not so interested because it is 19 year old news.



It does indeed seem odd to describe an "effort" as "nostalgia". Obviously I am referring to the positive sentiment that you express about the Oteai.

You say nostalgie de la boue. Why would you think I meant to call the Nihon Kiin deprived? Is this supposed to be an innocent exaggeration? I suppose when you throw mud at the nihon kiin like that they just wipe it off.

I think you are trolling. Or offering a good imitation thereof.

But I may have been slightly influenced by just reading Three Billy Goats Gruff with my youngest grandson. So, just in case, I repeat:

(1) I did not say the Oteai lasted all year. I said it gave players regular games win or lose at the rate of one week (obviously while it was "live" - no tournament runs all year), whereas other tournaments did not. I think you are being egregiously disingenuous to suggest someone who has transcribed hundreds of Oteai games and written about the event extensively not to know how it operated.

In any case, the point is that the different tournament structures were important financially. The Oteai structure served a good purpose in its early days, but in its latter days it barely changed its structure (no komi/handicaps, no titles - just played for a game fee) and so produced too many worthless games which were a huge drain on resources. The NK published the figures at the time. Look them up instead of making wild assertions.

(2) Where was I praising the Oteai? Why on earth would I want to? I was factually answering a query (from a polite reader) so as to give the background to why the NK made the decisions it did.

(3) "X-years-old news" = history. History is important and useful. Your loss if you ignore it.

For the record, I have written books on the Honinbo Tournament, the Meijin and the ten-game matches, etc etc. I have described the structures of all tournaments in the GoGoD TBase. There is a long multi-part history of the Oteai there, but there is also stuff like the history of newspaper go and radio/tv go. Unlike Burns I have no "partial fancy". It should be obvious that the Oteai is not my Nancy.

Trip trap, trip, trap.

I think you fail to really address what I wrote, at least I find little more than accusations that I am making "suggestions" and being "disingenuous". I don't understand this talk of things being suggested and all of that. I just don't understand this way of disagreeing, it seems useless to me, otherwise I might prepare an angry reply.

The Three Billy Goats Gruff is a good one, the moral of the story is not to be greedy. Then there is the practical lesson to give your goats time to grow fat in a shieling.

Back to my inquire, I'd like to say that I didn't think that fees alone were enough to make a living (at least not for most people), but the way John explained it had me thinking.

I know that most pros need to do more things besides playing in the official tournaments. In this regard, Hikaru no Go seem to be realistic too. Many players are seen teaching, including Ogata and Kurata; the Meijin has a go salon where other pros teach too, and when Akira turns pro, Icchan tells the customers "he is a pro now, he has to charge you"; Hikaru goes to an event, and when Waya makes his plan to live on his own (ehem...), he thinks about where he is going to get money from. More important, I think, is the situation of Yashiro 1-dan (the 3rd player in the Hokuto Cup): he wants to be a pro player, but his parents think it isn't a good idea, for money reasons. When Honda buys food in the street, he tells a man that he is a go pro. The man answers as if it isn't a very common job. The hint here is that most people don't know about this world. Besides, Honda seems to be kind of player that won't have a great performane in tournaments. All these worries seem to match what has been told here.

Just to toss some figures into this discussion...

Based on the February 2022 update on Mamumamu's site (http://mamumamu0413.web.fc2.com/rating/ ... nking.html): the average age of the 440-some active professional players in Japan is just under 45. Therefore most of the pros in Japan today would have experienced playing in the Oteai while it was still going on.

During the period February 2021 through January 2022, they played an average (mean) of 23 games (median = 21 games). Here is a scatter plot of games played (Y axis) against age (x axis). There is a mild relationship where younger players play more games.

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Interesting plot.

I can see Sumire and Asami

I can also see Sugiuchi.

https://www.nihonkiin.or.jp/player/rank.html has the Japanese promotion rules. As you can see, there are two things about prize promotion:

1) Only the fees earned in top 7 tournaments count for promotion
2) If you got promoted that year based on wins, you cannot be promoted by prize money

So, Sumire was not eligible for prize money promotion in 2021 since she got already got promoted to 2 dan by wins. In 2022 she will get two chances for promotion to 3d: wins or prize money

In the plot above it is obviously a non-linear relationship. There is at least one outlier, too. However, the fact the all the players with high number of games are young. I venture that that is due to young players wanting to be promoted but not being able to do well in top seven titles.

I saw a Tweet that reminded me of this post. Ichiriki working hard to make that money.



Just kidding. It's actually a nice give-away.