Knotwilg wrote:
I'm taller than all these men.
From meeting people, from pictures, or because you’re a giant and you’re gambling? 
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| Is Go a Tall Man's Game? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18606 |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Tue Feb 15, 2022 5:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
...explanation to follow, but does anyone know how tall the following fellows were? Go Seigen Cho Chikun Lee Changho Lee Sedol Cho Hunhyeon Shin Jinseo Ke Jie Iyama Yuta Publications stating their heights would be best, but if you've personally met them, or know pictures where you can clearly compare them to someone else, that'll do. Why? I don't quite know, but I'm asking as a favor to Dan Luu, who asked it on twitter (https://twitter.com/danluu/status/1492973618048880640). He didn't say why he's asking, but he tends to write very interesting things, especially if you're in the tech industry (http://danluu.com/). I thought this group might have someone who knew, or can check Chinese/Japanese/Korean media for an answer. Dan named Go Seigen, Cho Chikun, Lee Changho, Lee Sedol, while I added Cho Hunhyeon and the current top players in each of the major countries. |
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| Author: | bugcat [ Tue Feb 15, 2022 11:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
I doubt any of these oriental professionals are particularly tall as we would understand the term in the west. Lee Sedol has always looked quite short to me, even for a Korean. |
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| Author: | Harleqin [ Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
I saw a photo where Ichiriki Ryo looked a head taller than Iyama Yuta. |
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| Author: | Knotwilg [ Wed Feb 16, 2022 7:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
hyperpape wrote: ...explanation to follow, but does anyone know how tall the following fellows were? Go Seigen Cho Chikun Lee Changho Lee Sedol Cho Hunhyeon Shin Jinseo Ke Jie Iyama Yuta On a world wide scale, it's not a tall man's game. I'm taller than all these men. On the other hand, the Dutch preponderance in high level amateurs is suspicious ... All jokes aside ... there are a few known biases in the world out there 1) In football (soccer) there's a bias towards being born early in the year, because you are taller and stronger than those in the same age group, therefore get positive stimulus, not only psychologically or physiologically but also by being sent to selected programs, national selections ... leading to a spiral effect 2) People have grown taller over time because of better nutrition, health care ... We can suspect that welfare is a common ancestor for height and performance in activities which (unlike basketball) don't directly depend on height That is, on average, comparing dissimilar groups. Within one homogenous group I wouldn't expect such a correlation. In my own circle I didn't observe go players to be taller on average than our population. |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Wed Feb 16, 2022 8:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
Yeah, I’m not sure, but I suspect the most relevant question is how tall they are relative to the average in their own countries? Or just absolute heights, so that anyone can estimate your own interpretation. |
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| Author: | jlt [ Wed Feb 16, 2022 8:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
This page says that chess players tend to be short: https://www.chess.com/blog/GM_Kenny_Ji/ ... ss-players |
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| Author: | bugcat [ Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
I went to like your post, then realised we were on L19, heh. There's short and there's short -- Steinitz was really five foot flat?! |
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| Author: | Kirby [ Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
I'd suspect that the average height of a professional go player is less than the average height of the population in that country. I don't have data to back this up, except for the handful of pros that I've met in real life. |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Feb 16, 2022 10:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
As for go and tall people, I can report a positive correlation. I was about two meters tall when I reached 2 dan; both my height and go playing strength have declined a little bit since then. jlt wrote: This page says that chess players tend to be short: https://www.chess.com/blog/GM_Kenny_Ji/ ... ss-players Only British chess players. |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Sun Feb 20, 2022 3:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
Knotwilg wrote: I'm taller than all these men. From meeting people, from pictures, or because you’re a giant and you’re gambling?
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| Author: | dfan [ Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
Here's the article the request was for: https://danluu.com/talent/ |
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| Author: | pajaro [ Wed Feb 23, 2022 5:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
There may be a slight bias here. When Nakamura Sumire turned pro, we could see many photos of her playing in exhibition games. In particular, there was one where she needed 2 cushions to sit properly, more or less. I also read some comments about how she would tend to play closer to her. Of course she could see the whole board, and of course she could decide to play any move, close or not. But that's the point of an unconscious bias: what she can choose and what she tends to do is not the same. If you are taller then the opposite side is not so far away? Does it help you to have a better whole board vision? I don't know. I would usually say no, it would be a tiny tiny effect. But when people argue about the right value of komi, or rely in an AI that predicts the outcome of a game from the first move and you trust it, can you ignore such effect? |
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| Author: | jlt [ Wed Feb 23, 2022 6:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
I just skimmed through dfan's link, but I understood that * Men in leading positions of big companies are generally tall * So one may wonder if height is correlated with intelligence * Since top chess (or go?) players are not taller than average, we can conclude that the answer to the preceding question is negative. |
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Wed Feb 23, 2022 6:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
Ever since Victorian phrenology, in which at times it seemed you could claim to hit someone on the head with a hammer and improve their IQ with the subsequent lump, there have been various faddy attempts to link IQ or a skill to an extraneous feature. In Japanese go (and shogi) the most recent fads I can recall have been birthdays (on the basis of both simple statistics and astrology), left/right-brain aptitudes, and blood type. Blood type still pops up today. It has often also been claimed that being the youngest child in the family is a marker for go ability (e.g. Go Seigen). How that squares with only childs (nice example of a necessary deviant plural  ) who are also an eldest child is always left unexplained. And the fact there may be younger girls in the family is usually ignored.That is not to say there are no markers. It may just be that any suggested so far have been debunked as pseudo-science. Applying common-sense and long experience, allied to lessons from other activities, I think we can say that more likely markers of go ability are starting young, very hard work, and the circumstance of having go-playing relatives. But maybe these are too obvious for scientists to bother trying to debunk? Quote: * So one may wonder if height is correlated with intelligence Or bossiness? Ask Napoleon. Or, as more men run big companies, are men more intelligent than women? |
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| Author: | Ferran [ Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
John Fairbairn wrote: Ever since Victorian phrenology, in which at times it seemed you could claim to hit someone on the head with a hammer and improve their IQ with the subsequent lump, Fair's fair. Some people DO get smarter when knocked silly. Quote: In Japanese go (and shogi) the most recent fads I can recall have been birthdays (on the basis of both simple statistics and astrology), left/right-brain aptitudes, and blood type. Blood type still pops up today. I seem to recall sometime during the Anime Boom in the 90s that Astrology and Blood type had a big influence in the success of *fictional characters*. And, really, a bunch of characters from that era do have both. I *think* it was more common in girl's manga, but... old memories (since forgotten; the neuron fades). Quote: with only childs (nice example of a necessary deviant plural )Sorry... I'd have thought it would be "only children"... What amb I missing? Quote: That is not to say there are no markers. It may just be that any suggested so far have been debunked as pseudo-science. I suppose the guys behind the James Webb telescope should actually thank pseudoscience. As much as a bother it is sometimes, it does pike people into getting more of the real one. In the case of, say, Blood type... how many people have learned statistics because of it? Quote: Or, as more men run big companies, are men more intelligent than women? Women would seem to be *wiser* at least. Take care. |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
jlt wrote: I just skimmed through dfan's link, but I understood that * Men in leading positions of big companies are generally tall * So one may wonder if height is correlated with intelligence * Since top chess (or go?) players are not taller than average, we can conclude that the answer to the preceding question is negative. I think this gives the wrong impression. Dan thinks that the prevalence of tall men suggests that we’re biased towards tall men. He briefly considers an objection that there’s a correlation between intelligence and height. He notes that correlation is weak, and points to chess players as counter-evidence. It’s basically pre-empting a clever sounding but invalid objection he’s anticipating. The real point is not “are tall guys smart?”, it’s “hey, this bias exists, and that seems pretty bad.” In a way, that’s pretty obvious, but this is an industry that fancies itself objective and rational. |
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| Author: | gennan [ Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
Knotwilg wrote: the Dutch preponderance in high level amateurs is suspicious ... In the Netherlands, I think most of our top 10 go players are tall even by Dutch standards (my estimate is that most of them are 1.95-2.00m, or 6'5"-6'7"). jlt wrote: I just skimmed through dfan's link, but I understood that * Men in leading positions of big companies are generally tall * So one may wonder if height is correlated with intelligence People in leading positions in business and politics tend to be tall, but I don't know if height correlates much with intelligence. I think it's just easier to become a leader when you're tall. People instinctively tend to respect tall people more and percieve them as natural leaders. This may instill more confidence in tall people, so there might even be a feedback loop. Maybe the same goes for people with deep voices. Tall men may also benefit there, as their larger bodies would also give them deeper voices (longer wave length of the sound waves they produce). |
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| Author: | jlt [ Sun Mar 06, 2022 5:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Is Go a Tall Man's Game? |
US presidents are generally tall (Biden doesn't appear on the picture, but he is about as tall as George W. Bush). Attachment: PRESIDENTS-HEIGHT-CHART.jpg [ 150.39 KiB | Viewed 14520 times ] Among the last 8 French presidents, 4 are tall and 4 are short. Attachment: Taille-présidence-france.png [ 18.24 KiB | Viewed 14520 times ] |
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