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 Post subject: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #1 Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:25 am 
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At 03:26
Maybe by78 and theCannyOnion have found employment there


Last edited by Elom0 on Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #2 Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 11:44 am 
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I am going to need some help here...

could you elaborate for those who don't follow Korean baduk?

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #3 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2023 7:42 am 
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pajaro wrote:
I am going to need some help here...

could you elaborate for those who don't follow Korean baduk?


All of the members of the Japanese team were underranked at 2 stars, so the entire team was ranked 2, but I think 2.5 is more accurate, and I'm not sure all the Japanese players are quite the same level. In the next highest team, 1st board Shin Minjoon is 4 stars and 2nd board Choi Jeong is 3.5, so it just looks like it was made by our two opinionated friends. Only the best pros like Buying Sangil and Shin Jinseo get 5 stars, although in my opinion they should give Shin Jinseo an extra special 6th star just for him.

Korean Baduk League this year greatly improved their format by adding teams from Taiwan and Japan. It's a round robin among all teams and then they are split into two groups for another mini round robin.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #4 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:42 am 
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For example, in the upcoming match between Japan Kiin and Korea Zinc,

On the fourth board, Hong Mujin is rated 3420 on goratings and is 3.5 how on earth is Onishi Ryuhei rated 3301 in goratings 2 stars!? They just made them up for the Japanese team.
Less egregreious is on the fifth board, Park Hyunsoo is, rated 3287, Koike Yoshihiro is rated 3211. So if Park Hyunsoo is 3 stars then Koike Yoshihiro should be about 2.5, not 2.
I'm all for baduk skill level realism, I think Choi Jeong is slightly overranked in both the Korean raings that put her at 17th in Korea and goratings that put her at about 16th in Korea, she's probably closer to about 20 in Korea for example, but goodness me I'm convinced our two opiniated friends made the chart for Japan's team. "What's the average random Japanese up-and coming pro level? okay let's just put it here without checking them individually". Getting to the playoffs is unrealistic but I want Japan to not finish last to prove a point. We'll see what happens in this match then.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #5 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 10:32 am 
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Hmmm... I see your point (more or less).

I know about the Onnion. I read his messages in the Sumire thread when she became a pro. I must have missed him when she started winning non-stop. By78, I don't know, they must be buddies, right?

I get that Japanese players are supposed to be weak, according to Korean standards, or Korean TV, or something. But I guess it's pointless to complain. Players just must prove the onnions wrong. The only way, on the board.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #6 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 11:47 am 
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pajaro wrote:
Hmmm... I see your point (more or less).

I know about the Onnion. I read his messages in the Sumire thread when she became a pro. I must have missed him when she started winning non-stop. By78, I don't know, they must be buddies, right?


By78 was there during the early days of the Following Iyama Yuta thread, talking about how Iyama was overranked to the point Uberdude had to create a separate thread for Iyama's rating, Although I wouldn't 'call out' others members of the forum to criticize them; I personally found their points, quite hilarious and entertaining, partly because it was often largely true in my opinion, haha :lol: if a bit exaggerated, but the fact they were able to get so upset about their perceived state of the Japanese scene was almost praiseworthy, haha! At least I agree with the larger idea. For example, the Fujitsu Cup stopped their tournament at exactly when Iyama Yuta was rising up the ranks, which was the worst time possible for Japanese Igo for a myriad of reasons. If you want something to self-destruct, give it to a Japanese culture of management. But I think constructive criticism is better here than just trashing Japan, and right now obvious Japan has turned things around and is once again internationally competitive.

pajaro wrote:
Hmmm... I see your point (more or less).

I get that Japanese players are supposed to be weak, according to Korean standards, or Korean TV, or something. But I guess it's pointless to complain. Players just must prove the onnions wrong. The only way, on the board.


That's why we need more international tournaments, specifically Japan-Korea tournaments, unfortunately Japan tends to conduct bilateral matches with everyone else but Korea, I feel Japan has historically always had the unfortunate habit of looking down on Korea as less cultured, in the case of go focusing on differences like Mickey Mouse time limits as evidence of Korea being 'less professional' while China is, yet in real terms Korea and Japan agree on more things with China such as amateur tournaments not having large prize money, but that's a different subject. Japan could learn a lot from it's former colony if it humbled itself, methinks.

Anyway, that's another reason the new Baduk League is way better. People outside the go community would treat us like a joke until go fully internationalised. You won't find the hilarity of Andy Murray competing only in Scottish tournaments and then declaring himself the world best, so why is that acceptable in go? I can assure you it looks just as ridiculous to people not familiar with go, like PhD's from low-standard universities.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #7 Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:08 am 
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I don't follow this league very much. There is not much info in English, just some Youtube videos from time to time.

How is the Japanese team doing? BTW, yesterday Fukuoka Kotarou lost on time. Did he lose track of time?


Last edited by pajaro on Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #8 Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:24 am 
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Mind you, Japan is not always pairing their strongest players, but Japan is yet to win a match, they came very close in the game where it was two-two and they played a 5th decider game and Fukouka Kotaro lost by half a point. The entire Japanese team is a youth team, if Ueno Asami had been playing they would have done better having both masters of speed go on their team instead of just one.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #9 Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 5:21 am 
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How is this going?

From time to time, Youtube tries to make me watch Baduk TV :lol: :lol: and sometimes I fall. But generally speaking, I don't know how are things going. Especially when I don't know who is playing, or past results. It's all in Korean.


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #10 Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 6:15 pm 
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pajaro wrote:
How is this going?

From time to time, Youtube tries to make me watch Baduk TV :lol: :lol: and sometimes I fall. But generally speaking, I don't know how are things going. Especially when I don't know who is playing, or past results. It's all in Korean.


Let's just say . . . I've been proven completely wrong . . . Japan is yet to win a match . . . But 18 year old Fukuoka Kotaro, winner of international U20 speed competition the Globis Cup, seems to be their best player at shorter time limits, he's usually Chosen as the Ace and as I mentioned earlier came close to giving Japan a win。The title holders are so-so. You could get results in English at igokisen's https://gotoeveryone.k2ss.info/news/kr/kl/20/

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #11 Posted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:36 pm 
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UPDATE I think I am getting pretty excited over this matchup . . . TAIWAN and JAPAN Play tomorow, perhaps the most interesting matchup of the league, yay!

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #12 Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 2:58 am 
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UPDATE LIVE NOW!


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #13 Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2023 11:19 pm 
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Finally, Japan got his first win.

They won the first 2 games, and things looked good. But 2 loses after, they had to play a 5th game to break the tie, and Japan won this one.

Even if Japan has lost all matches so far, I'd like to think that the gap with the other teams is not so big. It exists, obviously, but pro play is so high level, that overcoming a tiny gap needs a lot of effort. Kind of improving 0,01" for a top 100 m runner.


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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #14 Posted: Mon May 01, 2023 2:25 am 
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pajaro wrote:
Finally, Japan got his first win.

They won the first 2 games, and things looked good. But 2 loses after, they had to play a 5th game to break the tie, and Japan won this one.

Even if Japan has lost all matches so far, I'd like to think that the gap with the other teams is not so big. It exists, obviously, but pro play is so high level, that overcoming a tiny gap needs a lot of effort. Kind of improving 0,01" for a top 100 m runner.


The main reason is that winning a match requires winning on three out of five possible boards. Look at the win-loss records of the individual players and you'll get a feel for the difference, according to just the KB League game s the average elo of the players in Japan's team is about 150 elo below the Average player in the Korean League. We were taking about 최정先生 being in a slump, but her record is 8 wins 8 losses, exactly average, so her poor form level is 25th in Korea. In her normal form she would be in the top 25% of the KB League, top 13 or 12. But a team where every member was average would finish average, but if every member in their team was at 최정先生's in-form level they'd win the league easily because of the compounding effects of multiple boards.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #15 Posted: Tue May 23, 2023 8:20 am 
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Okay, so the league is finished, and Taiwan won 3 matches, while Japan won only 1 match, which was against Taiwan, so Japan couldn't beat any of the Korean teams. I swear if they don't add Ueno Asami to the team next year . . . I suggested to the KBA to let foreign teams have double the number of players. This allows top players like Iyama and Ichiriki to join without there being any risk of scheduling issues where there aren't enough available players for a match. Next year I'll report on all of the games by Japan and Taiwan over here on L19.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #16 Posted: Tue May 23, 2023 9:40 am 
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That was exaggerated, 엚오!

Interestingly, Sakai Yuki 4 dan Fukuoka Kotaru 4 dan beat a number of Korean 9 dans. I remember a time when it was hardly possible to talk about international pro competition without someone claiming that Japanese 9 dans would only be low dans in Korea; not everyone can be a conversationalist. Now the Japanese low dans are doing pretty well in Korea and it's a strong tournament, except for one 2 dan with 0-1 and a 3 dan with 2-2, Sakai Yuki with 4-7 and Fukuoka Kotaro with 6-5 are the lowest ranked players.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #17 Posted: Tue May 23, 2023 2:46 pm 
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Except --- low rankings of young players can be deceptive. Regardless of how strong a young player might be in absolute terms, it will take time for them to win promotion.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #18 Posted: Wed May 24, 2023 4:52 am 
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Choi Jeong is currently ranked #7 on Goratings amongst Japanese and Taiwanese players. Her performance in the league was exactly a 50% win ratio, so an average KB league player. Literally the only Japanese and Taiwanese we can expect to have a positive record are 3 Japanese players, Iyama Yuta, Ichiriki Ryo, Shibano Toramaru, and below them 3 Taiwanese players, Yu Zenqi, Hsu Chiayuan, Xu Haohong. That's it.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #19 Posted: Wed May 24, 2023 6:55 am 
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Mike Novack wrote:
Except --- low rankings of young players can be deceptive. Regardless of how strong a young player might be in absolute terms, it will take time for them to win promotion.


True. Sakai Yuki is Rookie of the year (Shinjin-o) and they were both mere 3 dans at the end of last year. They are Nihon Kiin players, from the Tokyo branch, but Kotaro Fukuoka's teacher (according to his Nihon Kiin profile page) is a Korean player in Kansai Kiin. Maybe the Japanese players in the Baduk league have other such connections to Korea.

These two are also doing well in their official games. Their Nihon Kiin profile indicates Sakai Yuki is 9-2 this year and Kotaro Fukuoka is 8-1. Nihon Kiin doesn't list the Baduk league games. Kotaro Fukuoka played in the NHK cup this year and last year, now Sakai Yuki is joining him. They are 17 (Kotaro Fukuoka) and 19 (Sakai Yuki), probably 18 when most of the games in the Baduk league were played.

Elom0 wrote:
Choi Jeong is currently ranked #7 on Goratings amongst Japanese and Taiwanese players. Her performance in the league was exactly a 50% win ratio, so an average KB league player. Literally the only Japanese and Taiwanese we can expect to have a positive record are 3 Japanese players, Iyama Yuta, Ichiriki Ryo, Shibano Toramaru, and below them 3 Taiwanese players, Yu Zenqi, Hsu Chiayuan, Xu Haohong. That's it.


She was 8 - 11 according to 'goteveryone'. That is 42%. It's a tough league and team tournaments can also be tough. They best players from different teams are usually paired together, which means there are usually much harder matchups if you are the 1st or 2nd player in a team.

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 Post subject: Re: Okay, even I think this is exaggerating
Post #20 Posted: Wed May 24, 2023 11:41 am 
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Kotaro Fukuoka's teacher (according to his Nihon Kiin profile page) is a Korean player in Kansai Kiin.


This is Hong Malk-eun Saem who was a Korean amateur 7-dan and former insei living in Japan since 2005. He was second in the World Amateur in 2002.

He transferred to Japan, having married a Japanese amateur in 2004, with a view to trying to become a Japanese pro, but gave up and opened a go school in Tokyo, Japan, before becoming a pro in Osaka. He's now a 4-dan but teaching is his main avocation, and he seems to attract some noteworthy names. Nowadays, young pros often go to multiple schools, and so quite a few will have studied with him even if they don't regard him as their main teacher.

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True. Sakai Yuki is Rookie of the year (Shinjin-o)


Our US colleagues can comment on this better than me, but is that not a misnomer? Is not a rookie a player simply in his first full year? Players in the Shinjin-O (King of the New Stars) have typically been around for several years, and so most of them should be regarded as having been derookified, if that doesn't bring tears to your eyes.

King of the New Stars can perhaps be considered a misnomer, too, although when the tournament was devised the idea was to crown a future star. It will be interesting to see how the title is viewed when a female wins it. Recall that Asami was only a whisker away a couple of years ago. Shogi has introduced the term Queen 女王 but I don't recall that being used in the title of any go event. It's fairly common in ordinary journalistic persiflage, of course. I think Aoki was dubbed the First Queen of Go when she won the 1st Teikei Female Legends Cup.

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