It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 2:06 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Does Sugiuchi Kazuko have the lowest Shusaku number?
Post #1 Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:00 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 115
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 24
Rank: OGS 8k
DGS: bugcat
I came up with this idea about a year ago, I think, but a conversation just now jogged my memory and so I thought I'd check.

Shusaku played against Shuho, Shuho played against Kita Fumiko, and Sugiuchi Kazuko studied under Kita, so (if they played together) she should have the number three.

But do we have evidence that Sugiuchi indeed played against Kita? And does any other surviving person have a claim to a three-step number?

All the other candidates listed on SL's Shusaku number article as having S3 seem to have passed away, some many years ago: all of Kita's other students (perhaps - not all their articles have a date of death, or indeed retirement); Iwamoto, Go Seigen, Kitani, Segoe, Miyashita Shuyo, Felix Dueball, Kikuchi Yasuro (recently, ofc) and Hashimoto Utaro.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Does Sugiuchi Kazuko have the lowest Shusaku number?
Post #2 Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 10:04 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 115
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 24
Rank: OGS 8k
DGS: bugcat
Also, would it be trivial to assign every professional a maximum Shusaku number by designing a script to search the game trees in a database?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Does Sugiuchi Kazuko have the lowest Shusaku number?
Post #3 Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:10 am 
Oza

Posts: 3647
Liked others: 20
Was liked: 4626
Quote:
Shusaku played against Shuho, Shuho played against Kita Fumiko, and Sugiuchi Kazuko studied under Kita, so (if they played together) she should have the number three.


Where is the evidence that Kita played Shuho?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Does Sugiuchi Kazuko have the lowest Shusaku number?
Post #4 Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 9:49 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 724
Liked others: 1023
Was liked: 30
Rank: BGA 3 kyu
KGS: Elom, Windnwater
OGS: Elom, Elom0
Online playing schedule: The OGS data looks pretty so I'll pause for now before I change it.
John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Shusaku played against Shuho, Shuho played against Kita Fumiko, and Sugiuchi Kazuko studied under Kita, so (if they played together) she should have the number three.


Where is the evidence that Kita played Shuho?


This is where ez4u would come in handy! Although I imagine the 日本棋院 people would be perplexed by someone randomly asking them whether 杉内先生 played Kita sensei 。。。

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Does Sugiuchi Kazuko have the lowest Shusaku number?
Post #5 Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:13 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 115
Liked others: 1
Was liked: 24
Rank: OGS 8k
DGS: bugcat
@JohnFairbairn "Where is the evidence that Kita played Shuho?"

This claim was made in 2009 by American Go book translator Bob McGuigan (with whom I expect you're familiar) on his SL homepage, who claimed a Shusaku path Shusaku --> Shuho --> Kita --> Shiratori Sumiko --> himself. I assumed that it was based on kifu or other evidence that I didn't have access to, eg. from GoGoD.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Does Sugiuchi Kazuko have the lowest Shusaku number?
Post #6 Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:40 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 89
Liked others: 8
Was liked: 27
John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
Shusaku played against Shuho, Shuho played against Kita Fumiko, and Sugiuchi Kazuko studied under Kita, so (if they played together) she should have the number three.

Where is the evidence that Kita played Shuho?

It is possible but unlikely in view of the dates.
This missing link can be repaired using Iwasaki Kenzo, who played both Shusaku and Kita.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Does Sugiuchi Kazuko have the lowest Shusaku number?
Post #7 Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:51 pm 
Dies with sente

Posts: 99
Liked others: 5
Was liked: 33
bugcat wrote:
Also, would it be trivial to assign every professional a maximum Shusaku number by designing a script to search the game trees in a database?

Since you ask, and it is April 1st, I did something. See shusaku-number.html. Corrections and improvements are welcome.


This post by aeb was liked by: Waylon
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Does Sugiuchi Kazuko have the lowest Shusaku number?
Post #8 Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 11:18 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 127
Liked others: 2
Was liked: 21
Rank: KGS 1d
Hey, you have interesting typo in top (ie 2nd line) of this page https://homepages.cwi.nl/~aeb/go/games/ ... index.html ;)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Does Sugiuchi Kazuko have the lowest Shusaku number?
Post #9 Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:25 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 99
Liked others: 5
Was liked: 33
AloneAgainstAll wrote:
Hey, you have interesting typo in top (ie 2nd line) of this page https://homepages.cwi.nl/~aeb/go/games/ ... index.html ;)
Thanks! Fixed.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Does Sugiuchi Kazuko have the lowest Shusaku number?
Post #10 Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 1:35 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 532
Liked others: 27
Was liked: 142
KGS: pajaro
IGS: pajaro
I have a Shusaku number of 6! (or less) :lol: :lol: :lol:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Does Sugiuchi Kazuko have the lowest Shusaku number?
Post #11 Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:40 am 
Gosei
User avatar

Posts: 1753
Liked others: 177
Was liked: 491
It should be possible to compute an upper bound of the Shusaku number using the European Go Database, and knowing that some European players on https://homepages.cwi.nl/~aeb/go/games/ ... umber.html have Shusaku number 4 or 5.

Based on real-life tournament games, my Shusaku number is probably 7. If we add friendly games it's 6 or less.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group