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 Post subject: Game fees for big 7?
Post #1 Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2023 1:18 pm 
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How much are pro players paid per game in the BC, A, and Final preliminaries of Japan's major titles? I assume BC would be something like ¥75,000, right?

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Post #2 Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:09 pm 
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Elom0 wrote:
How much are pro players paid per game in the BC, A, and Final preliminaries of Japan's major titles? I assume BC would be something like ¥75,000, right?


At first I mistook your question for what they get paid in the leagues and was going to say it must be much more but for the preliminaries I don't really know. I'd still assume it could be a lot more, but then it probably increases the higher you go in the preliminaries, which means that the very lowest tier might be less than quoted, and probably players are offered more other duties (i.e. refereeing, commenting, simuls, ...) if they have more time or maybe it is the opposite that they get offered more duties if they are doing well and end up having to turn them down.

Speculating might be a futile exercise unless you are privy to official information. Likely the fees, invitations and other duties on offer are either somewhat arbitrary or alternatively have a fairly complicated structure that one would need the official information to make heads or tails of.

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 Post subject: Re: Game fees for big 7?
Post #3 Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2023 4:38 pm 
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Quote:
How much are pro players paid per game in the BC, A, and Final preliminaries of Japan's major titles? I assume BC would be something like ¥75,000, right?


I don't know the answer as so little data is released, but there has been some, which might allow you to speculate more rationally.

When the game fees structure was overhauled in 2003, the essence was that game fees would no longer depend on grade but on the level reached in a tournament. This made a big difference. Before, fees for a 9-dan were typically four or five times higher than for a 1-dan. The hope behind the change was that more 9-dans would then retire, as it was topping up the pension pot that was causing the biggest problem.

The Honinbo at that point was considered to be generous in its game fees. In the league, the winner of each game got 800,000 yen and the loser 600,000 yen. 1st prize was 32 million yen plus game fees for each game in the title match.

If you assume the preliminaries were at a significantly lower level (because many more players have to be paid) and also assume that something like the 5:1 ratio was still kept, it does seem that your estimate of 75,000 yen could be in the right ball park. It certainly wouldn't be high.

But note that the the Honinbo was considered generous, and note also that the latest change is reducing the prize pot by around 70% (making it is now No. 5 in the Top 7), so perhaps you need to be more pessimistic about the general level.

Note also that tournaments such as women's events or the Shinjin-O or the Young Carp by definition have restricted entries, and so game fees for those excluded are simply not available. But for that reason, you may also be able to use the list of players who win promotion based on game fees, and the number of games they play, to get a feel for the general level of game fees at the lower end of the scale.

What is certain is that a small percentage of pros (possibly only 10-20 pros) can afford to live on tournament earnings alone.

On a separate tack, reduced sponsorship doesn't just affect pros. It affects the Nihon Ki-in and Kansai Ki-in organisations themselves. In the case of making title-match events one day (and/or playing them in the Nihon Ki-in, as has been becoming increasingly common) lowers national exposure and deprives regional fans of big-time events, which will eventually have a cumulative negative effect. Since none of this will help Japan compete internationally, that may be yet another negative factor.

The current plan to replace Go Weekly appears to be based on a bigger Youtube presence. I'm not sure that I would grace that idea with the word "plan" but we must wait and see what they come up with. Korea went down the digital path first years, because they made a big push to install state-of-the art technology. It had some positive effects, not least an explosion in the playing population (though also in the competing gaming population), but the downside was the rise of Mickey Mouse quickplay events and Donald Duck sponsors - sponsors who quacked a lot but didn't hang around much. China has tried to push the digital side, too, which made a lot of sense given the sheer size of the country. But sponsorship can be fickle there, too (likewise in Taiwan). The pandemic has also made a huge difference and truly enthusiastic sponsors seem to be drying up. It might be noted that women players seem to be suffering especially badly (which is what happened the last time there was an economic downturn).

So, all in all, my assessment is that we have the ironic situation that Japan remains the best place to get long-term sponsorship, even though it will remain the weakest big nation. But sponsorship will gravitate more towards small-scale events with small preliminaries. Much sponsorship now seems focused on promoting new products and so the timeframe of the events extends only as long as the product feels new. The result will be that the pool of players will shrink. I don't expect newspapers to withdraw completely for a very long time yet (because of the "shame" of giving up on a famous tradition, as one newspaper director explained it to me). But I can foresee a sharp increase in converting even more preliminaries to open events for pros and amateurs, with no or minimal fees and prizes as at present, and so many current junior pros will become essentially semi-professionals. At the top end, the likes of Iyama will earn less but will still have lucrative, though possibly shorter, playing careers. I say "possibly" because I can't gauge yet whether veterans' or gimmicky events (e.g. the Teikei Legends) will last the course. I am also wondering whether the Nihon Ki-in and Kansai Ki-in will merge again - not now but in the not too distant future. At the very least, I'd expect more games on the internet to reduce bullet-train travel and accommodation costs.


This post by John Fairbairn was liked by: Elom0
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 Post subject: Re: Game fees for big 7?
Post #4 Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2023 7:14 pm 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Quote:
How much are pro players paid per game in the BC, A, and Final preliminaries of Japan's major titles? I assume BC would be something like ¥75,000, right?


I don't know the answer as so little data is released, but there has been some, which might allow you to speculate more rationally.

When the game fees structure was overhauled in 2003, the essence was that game fees would no longer depend on grade but on the level reached in a tournament. This made a big difference. Before, fees for a 9-dan were typically four or five times higher than for a 1-dan. The hope behind the change was that more 9-dans would then retire, as it was topping up the pension pot that was causing the biggest problem.

The Honinbo at that point was considered to be generous in its game fees. In the league, the winner of each game got 800,000 yen and the loser 600,000 yen. 1st prize was 32 million yen plus game fees for each game in the title match.

If you assume the preliminaries were at a significantly lower level (because many more players have to be paid) and also assume that something like the 5:1 ratio was still kept, it does seem that your estimate of 75,000 yen could be in the right ball park. It certainly wouldn't be high.

But note that the the Honinbo was considered generous, and note also that the latest change is reducing the prize pot by around 70% (making it is now No. 5 in the Top 7), so perhaps you need to be more pessimistic about the general level.

Note also that tournaments such as women's events or the Shinjin-O or the Young Carp by definition have restricted entries, and so game fees for those excluded are simply not available. But for that reason, you may also be able to use the list of players who win promotion based on game fees, and the number of games they play, to get a feel for the general level of game fees at the lower end of the scale.

What is certain is that a small percentage of pros (possibly only 10-20 pros) can afford to live on tournament earnings alone.

On a separate tack, reduced sponsorship doesn't just affect pros. It affects the Nihon Ki-in and Kansai Ki-in organisations themselves. In the case of making title-match events one day (and/or playing them in the Nihon Ki-in, as has been becoming increasingly common) lowers national exposure and deprives regional fans of big-time events, which will eventually have a cumulative negative effect. Since none of this will help Japan compete internationally, that may be yet another negative factor.

The current plan to replace Go Weekly appears to be based on a bigger Youtube presence. I'm not sure that I would grace that idea with the word "plan" but we must wait and see what they come up with. Korea went down the digital path first years, because they made a big push to install state-of-the art technology. It had some positive effects, not least an explosion in the playing population (though also in the competing gaming population), but the downside was the rise of Mickey Mouse quickplay events and Donald Duck sponsors - sponsors who quacked a lot but didn't hang around much. China has tried to push the digital side, too, which made a lot of sense given the sheer size of the country. But sponsorship can be fickle there, too (likewise in Taiwan). The pandemic has also made a huge difference and truly enthusiastic sponsors seem to be drying up. It might be noted that women players seem to be suffering especially badly (which is what happened the last time there was an economic downturn).

So, all in all, my assessment is that we have the ironic situation that Japan remains the best place to get long-term sponsorship, even though it will remain the weakest big nation. But sponsorship will gravitate more towards small-scale events with small preliminaries. Much sponsorship now seems focused on promoting new products and so the timeframe of the events extends only as long as the product feels new. The result will be that the pool of players will shrink. I don't expect newspapers to withdraw completely for a very long time yet (because of the "shame" of giving up on a famous tradition, as one newspaper director explained it to me). But I can foresee a sharp increase in converting even more preliminaries to open events for pros and amateurs, with no or minimal fees and prizes as at present, and so many current junior pros will become essentially semi-professionals. At the top end, the likes of Iyama will earn less but will still have lucrative, though possibly shorter, playing careers. I say "possibly" because I can't gauge yet whether veterans' or gimmicky events (e.g. the Teikei Legends) will last the course. I am also wondering whether the Nihon Ki-in and Kansai Ki-in will merge again - not now but in the not too distant future. At the very least, I'd expect more games on the internet to reduce bullet-train travel and accommodation costs.


Thank you so much for the reply! Using the total game fee winnings to number of games quotient is an excellent idea, but sadly only figured for the top 10 in all prize money and I just want the money the lower dans make from the big 7 they use for promotion . . . It would be awkward for me to ask the Nihon and Kansai Kiin directly. I don't think they should merge. I am really of the opinion that Korea, Japan and China should give up on relying on national tournaments of focus on finding multi-national sponsors for large-scale international tournament with integration preliminaries in all four countries.

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 Post subject: Re: Game fees for big 7?
Post #5 Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 2:10 am 
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Do the annual list of top-10 players’ winnings include the game fees? I imagine they’re not a huge proportion of the total, but by the time you reach #10, they must matter a bit.

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