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there is something that smells in asian game.
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Author:  Magicwand [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:11 am ]
Post subject:  there is something that smells in asian game.
there is something that smells in asian game.

in the mixed pair game Park jung hwan - lee selah vs ryusing - tangyi ref declared chinese pair won the game.
chinese players only had 1 min left in the game and having taugh time making move. (if time runout they lose)
ref interfere and made decision that chinese player are ahead and won the game.

that really stinks.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
SGF or it didn't happen.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
Wait, so this was a SD rengo game and the ref declared that they won simply because they winning, but were low on time? If so, that completely changes the game of Go into a game decided by judges (Can you convince the ref that you are winning by enough to have him declare the game for you?).

How is this controversy being treated in Korea and China?
Author:  Magicwand [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
SGF or it didn't happen.


i do have the record from tygem..
http://www.tygem.com/news/news/viewpage ... &findword=

but i dont know how to save them to sgf

Dusk Eagle wrote:
Wait, so this was a SD rengo game and the ref declared that they won simply because they winning, but were low on time? If so, that completely changes the game of Go into a game decided by judges (Can you convince the ref that you are winning by enough to have him declare the game for you?).

How is this controversy being treated in Korea and China?


i do not have any input from china yet but koreans are pissed at way they handled this game.
if you look at the gaem...it is not that easy game to finish within one minute time.
i think it will give chinese a bad name and only hurt go.
i think chinese go club should step in and apologize to the world. (but i am sure they wont)
Author:  Li Kao [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
I can't find a record on that page you linked.
IMO the referee terminating the game is ok if the real game has already finished(i.e. to the point where you'd normally pass and score) but one side is just making useless moves trying to run the opponent out of time. Anything earlier than that is unacceptable.
But this once again highlights that absolute time isn't good for go. You need something like 5 seconds per move overtime.
Author:  hiyayang [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
According to the Chinese report on the incident, http://yayun2010.sina.com.cn/go/2010-11-20/16475322777.shtml, there is a written rule for this type of sudden-death game that gives the referee the right to intervene when it is clear that one side is merely prolonging a losing game on the only hope to win on time. In this case, as reported in the article, the chief referee Wu Yulin 6p (Chinese), called upon 金秀壮 9p (a Korean in the Asian Go Referee Committee), who went on to have a few words with the Korean players (Park and Lee), who then resigned the game.

So it looks like that the referees were exercising their right within the rule, even though it was a kind of subjective matter to determine whether it was a lost or losing game.

Actually this is not the first time the controversy arose in this kind of games. I recalled in the first Mind Olympic games, a North Korean player won a Go game from a Chinese player (both amateurs) this way. In that case, the referee didn't intervene and the Chinese player complained. It is not clear to me, however, whether the rules used in that game gave the referee the right to intervene.

In my opinion, the best way to avoid this type of controversay is to use Fischer clocks, which should eliminate the subjective element in the game.
Author:  hiyayang [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
The (incomplete) game record is available at http://weiqi.sports.tom.com/qipu/201011/2010yy-hs-2-3.sgf. According to the comment on the last recorded move (#261), the White players (Koreans) proceeded to play another 20 or 30 meaningless moves ("filling stones"), forcing Black to remove captured stones. In the process, Liu Xing (one of the Chinese players) was penalized by 1 pt for failing to removing all captured stones before pressing the clock. Upon that, the game was paused and the referees had a discussion with the Korean players, who then resigned the game.
Author:  TMark [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
hiyayang wrote:
According to the Chinese report on the incident, http://yayun2010.sina.com.cn/go/2010-11-20/16475322777.shtml, there is a written rule for this type of sudden-death game that gives the referee the right to intervene when it is clear that one side is merely prolonging a losing game on the only hope to win on time. In this case, as reported in the article, the chief referee Wu Yulin 6p (Chinese), called upon 金秀壮 9p (a Korean in the Asian Go Referee Committee), who went on to have a few words with the Korean players (Park and Lee), who then resigned the game.



Kim Su-chang.

Best wishes.
Author:  Magicwand [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
hiyayang wrote:
The (incomplete) game record is available at http://weiqi.sports.tom.com/qipu/201011/2010yy-hs-2-3.sgf. According to the comment on the last recorded move (#261), the White players (Koreans) proceeded to play another 20 or 30 meaningless moves ("filling stones"), forcing Black to remove captured stones. In the process, Liu Xing (one of the Chinese players) was penalized by 1 pt for failing to removing all captured stones before pressing the clock. Upon that, the game was paused and the referees had a discussion with the Korean players, who then resigned the game.


are you saying korean players resigned the game? or korean ref resigned the game?
ref do not have right to resign game. also..the game is far from finish and i dont think ref should interfere at this point.
if you have game record they you should agree that it is not finished and moves are not meaningless.
only reason they stopped the game is that chinese players are running out of time and about to lose.

also..meaningless move??? if you are planning time attack you may play move quickly meaningless or not. it is a part of the game.

this is not right...
Author:  Li Kao [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
To me it sounds like the Korean referee convinced the Korean players that they should resign.

Quote:
forcing Black to remove captured stones. In the process, Liu Xing (one of the Chinese players) was penalized by 1 pt for failing to removing all captured stones before pressing the clock.

Don't most rulesets allow capture of multiple stones while the clock is stopped?

I don't understand why people insist on playing serious games with sudden death. SD is asking for this kind of drama. Play with non retarded rules and you won't have that problem.
Author:  hiyayang [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
Magicwand wrote:

are you saying korean players resigned the game? or korean ref resigned the game?


According to the report and the comment in the game record, the Korean players resigned the game.

Magicwand wrote:
ref do not have right to resign game. also..the game is far from finish and i dont think ref should interfere at this point.


That would be up to the rules and the interpretation of the rules.

Magicwand wrote:
if you have game record they you should agree that it is not finished and moves are not meaningless.
only reason they stopped the game is that chinese players are running out of time and about to lose.

also..meaningless move???


I was simply translating/paraphrasing the last comment in the game record. The "meaningless moves" were not shown in the record, so I cannot comment on them.

Magicwand wrote:
if you are planning time attack you may play move quickly meaningless or not. it is a part of the game....


as long as it is within the rules...
Author:  kokomi [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
Sudden death is ridicilous for serious games like Asian Game. I would perfer byo-yomi time.


We need to see the sgf for furthur discussion of whether the korean team are playing the 'meaningless moves' in hope to win on time.
Author:  kokomi [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
Magicwand wrote:
there is something that smells in asian game.

in the mixed pair game Park jung hwan - lee selah vs ryusing - tangyi ref declared chinese pair won the game.
chinese players only had 1 min left in the game and having taugh time making move. (if time runout they lose)
ref interfere and made decision that chinese player are ahead and won the game.

that really stinks.


The ref did not declare. the players resigned the game.
We are talking about the truth here, don't be misleading please.
Author:  hiyayang [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
On Tom Weiqi forum, someone posted the Chinese rules (2002 version) for SD games (http://club.weiqi.tom.com/item_111_1735107_0_1.html):

第12条 计时

4、包干用时制
　　包干用时制是规定基本时限之内必须结束比赛的计时办法，超时判负。
　　包干用时制的赛事均应事先规定基本时限，规定计时器材，并可制订其他实施细则，但以下几条须共同遵守。
　　(1)计时钟一律置于白方右手一侧。
　　(2)下子和按钟必须使用同一只手，不得一只手下棋，另一只手按钟。
　　(3)下单官仍须计时。
　　(4)当一方放弃盘上竞争而导致放弃着手权时，允许终止计时，双方可争之点全部归属于对方。双方地界的勘定由裁判长负责。
　　(5)提倡使用电子钟计时。使用机械指针式钟计时，以计时钟的红针倒下、分针、秒针均超过“12”为超时。
　　(6)当计时钟发生故障时，裁判长应根据实际情况作出临时更换计时钟、解释计时钟读数、对某方超时判负等果断裁决。
　　(7)裁判长有权制止无理消耗对方时间的非正常行棋。

The last item, #7, says "The referee has the right to stop the act of wasting the opponent's time with abnormal moves".
Author:  kokomi [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
I think Asian Games has its own rules, in the discussion we should refer to the Asian Games rules.
Author:  hyperpape [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
This is a good example of where the ref needs to be a strong player. I would personally prefer a ruleset and timing system that avoids this kind of scenario, but I don't fetishize formal rules so much that I think these rules are unacceptable.
Author:  Magicwand [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
kokomi wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
there is something that smells in asian game.

in the mixed pair game Park jung hwan - lee selah vs ryusing - tangyi ref declared chinese pair won the game.
chinese players only had 1 min left in the game and having taugh time making move. (if time runout they lose)
ref interfere and made decision that chinese player are ahead and won the game.

that really stinks.


The ref did not declare. the players resigned the game.
We are talking about the truth here, don't be misleading please.


i am getting my info from tygem and they didnt say anything about players resigning.
i do not have any intension of misleading but i would like to know the truth.
i dont think info found in chinese website is reliable either.
we will wait and see.. :)
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
To turn to more fragrant aspects, I was pleased to see Joanne Missingham, partnering Zhou Junxun, start of so well. They won their first three games. Admittedly the opposition has not been too taxing (Vietnam was one) but they did beat a pair of pros, Yang Shihai and Jian Ying, a husband-and-wife team playing for Hong Kong.
Author:  gosuki [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
http://www.gz2010.cn/10/1117/17/6LN7GQ2N007804B7_2.html

提倡使用电子钟计时。使用机械指针式钟计时，以计时钟的红针倒下，分针、秒针均超过“12”为超时。当计时钟发生故障时，裁判长应根据实际情况作出临时更换计时钟、解释计时钟读数、对某方超时判负等果断裁决。裁判长有权制止无理消耗对方时间的非正常行棋。

The translation of this rule has already done in #14:"The referee has the right to stop the act of wasting the opponent's time with abnormal moves".

Report this post

I thought the Korean team was not well informed of this rule, but now I find I am wrong.
this rule is official(announced on Nov 17).It is translated, and delivered to the coach of the Korean team (for sure. there is news about it in both Chinese and Korean sites).
The Korean team is supposed to know this rule, but as we have seen, whether "meaningless moves" exist or not, the Korean team wasn't aware of it until yesterday.

ok, we were using different rules in AG...how can't there be controversies?
Author:  hiyayang [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: there is something that smells in asian game.
The time line of these events seems a bit curious, as it made the news (http://post.weiqi.tom.com/s/80000B013768.html) ("Strict rules for rengo games made Yang Jaeho "furious", Korean team in panic mode") that the Korean coach was unaware of one of the rules ("a player must place stones and press the clock with the same hand") until 11/19. If the official rules were announced (and presumably translated and delivered) on 11/17, what happened between 11/17 and 11/19?

In fact, the rule that Yang 9p took issue with in that news was just a few lines away from the rule that caused the controversy later. (They were listed as items #2 and #7 respectively in post #14.) If the Korean team didn't get the written rules in advance, then I'd say the host was at fault; otherwise, I think the blame should be placed squarely on the Korean coach for failing to read the rules carefully.

It is worth pointing out the following about the Chinese rules for SD games to clarify some misunderstandings about them:

1. (item #3 in post #14) Filling dames must be clocked. One can infer from that that filling dames are considered the "normal moves" that the rule allows (as opposed to the "abnormal moves" that the rule item #7 prohibits). Therefore, one could lose on time when filling dames and the referee would have no right to intervene, regardless of who is ahead on the board.

However, there is an escape clause for someone who is way ahead on the board while short on time:

2. (item #4 in post #14) One player may opt to forgo his/her right to move, allowing the clock to stop [therefore avoiding to lose on time] and yielding all contestable points to the opponent. The referee is responsible for determining their territories.


In this incident, the Korean players were said to be engaging in the act of "填子", which usually means playing in the opponent's or their own territory with no benefit whatsoever other than wasting the opponent's time. It is different from playing normal endgame moves (including filling dames), which would be allowed by the rules.

Also worth pointing out is that the rules do not give the referee the right to declare a winner. The referee has the right to ask a player to stop playing certain moves (sort of like a "cease-and-desist" order) and the game would resume. One may wonder why the Korean players decided to resign insted of resuming the game (with so many legal endgame moves left to play) and what was discussed between them and the Korean referee Kim Su-Chang 9p (thank you TMark!) that appeared to have resulted in their decision.
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