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| Hidden star http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3026 |
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Hidden star |
As I reported earlier Cho Chikun has nudged ahead of Rin Kaiho by one win to stand first in the list of players with most career wins. He has 1365 (as of end 2010). However, there are currently thirteen players who have passed 1000 career wins in Japan with another five poised to join them over the next year or so. And one of those could rewrite the record book. "Most career wins" represents longevity as much as anything else, and also has to be tempered by the fact that there are more games available nowadays. However, there are other interesting ways to look at the figures, and a couple of these are to note the age at which 1000 wins was achieved and winning percentage. Of these, age is also affected a little by the availability of games. Winning percentage can be also misleading when a player has passed his prime and starts losing more than he wins. This can be offset to some extent by taking the winning percentage at the point 1000 wins was achieved. On "age at 1000" basis, we can currently put Cho Chikun on top of the pile (43 years 1 month, after 31 years 4 months as a pro). He is most closely followed by Kobayashi Koichi (age 46 years 2 months, 31-7 as a pro). As regards "% at 1000", Kobayashi is top at 68.0% (followed by Cho 67.5%, Sakata Eio 67.4%, Hane Yasumasa 67.2%). But... coming up swiftly on the rails is YUKI SATOSHI of the Kansai Ki-in. He is currently on 988 wins. More significantly, he was born in February 1972, and so is on course to reach 1000 wins even before he is 40. On top of that, he looks set to smash also the record for "% at 1000" - he is currently on 72.9%. Yet it is probably safe to say Yuki is one of the least known of pros. At GoGoD we often get asked for games of specific pros, and there have been some pretty unusual choices - perhaps based on having met such-and-such a pro. I can recall only one Yuki fan. Maybe T Mark can recall others, but as it happens he is busy anyway at the moment doing lots of old Kansai Ki-in games and so we are adding quite a few early Yuki games to the database. We only have 500 Yuki games at the moment, though, TM is going to be busy for a while longer! However, one game he has just added in the last fortnight or so is Yuki's insei game in which he qualified as a pro. That was in December 1983, so he is obviously in line also to smash the record for shortest pro career to 1000. Of course, Yuki's low profile must be to do with the fact that he has barely featured in major title matches until last year (2010) when he took the Tengen title from Yamashita Keigo 3-0. Before that, he had been four times the unsuccessful challenger in the Gosei and there was a question mark over his ability to handle this level of play, despite a slew of previous successes in minor tournaments. But this famously happened to Kato Masao, who went on to seem almost unbeatable once he achieved his first major title (and for the record his 1000 stats are 49 years 2, 67.0%). It does seem incredible that a player can score 73%, much of it at the top level of leagues and so on, and not see that translated into more titles. Yuki is a Kansai Ki-in player, and the KK have had a tough time in recent years, with Nihon Ki-in players being sniffy about their allegedly overblown grades and lack of titles. But Yuki (Tengen) and Sakai Hideyuki (Gosei) tilted the balance back last year and made the 60th anniversary year of the KK the first year KK players had held two major titles at the same time. The KK also seems to be running very well as a business, and so there is a sound basis for further success. (Incidentally, two of the players in the top thirteen above are KK players, Hashimoto Shoji and Honda Kunihisa. But their totals are under-recorded because early records are missing.) |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden star |
Back when there were a few unofficial ratings of professional go players, Yuki Satoshi did quite well. He was 10th in the world according to ProGor, and 25th according to Holigor's ratings (I put slightly more faith in the latter rankings with regard to Japanese players). Can you tell me who the thirteenth player with 1000 wins is? I now have Cho, Rin, Kato, Otake, Hane, Ishida, Yamashiro, O Rissei, Takemiya, Sakata, Hashimoto and Honda. PS. I believe you mean Hane Yasumasa--Hane Naoki is only 34. |
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| Author: | gaius [ Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden star |
Nice article! Could the number of won games for Yuki have anything to do with the fact that he is a Kansai Ki-in professional? Unlike Cho Chikun, Rin Kaiho, or most of the other players you mention, he gets to play in the Kansai Ki-in tournaments. |
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden star |
hyperpape: yes, I meant Yasumasa, thank you, but Naoki is actually a dark horse in this race. I have amended the OP. Kobayashi is the one missing from your list. The ones coming up are Kudo (990), Yuki (988), Yoda (983), Kobayashi Satoru (979), Kataoka (960). gaius: there are also tournaments restricted to Nihon Ki-in pros, so I expect affiliation doesn't make too much difference. In any case, the KK First Place is the only one that is really relevant here, and that doesn't have very many games, being a KO. Yuki has a respectable record of reaching leagues, but it is not a remarkable one. I suspect he is rarely knocked out in early rounds, so clocks up a large number of wins, but perhaps he fails often at the final hurdle. he is obviously still learning, though! |
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| Author: | pwaldron [ Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden star |
Interesting stuff, John. As a matter of interest, do you have any stats for Chinese and Korean players? I assume Lee Chang Ho and Cho Hun Hyun would be well up there, but I really have no sense of the Chinese go scene. |
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| Author: | John Fairbairn [ Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden star |
Quote: Interesting stuff, John. As a matter of interest, do you have any stats for Chinese and Korean players? I assume Lee Chang Ho and Cho Hun Hyun would be well up there, but I really have no sense of the Chinese go scene. Cho Hun-hyeon was the second Korean to record 1,000 wins (in 1995 after 34 years, but his games during his professional years in Japan are excluded). On 2004-06-22 he played his 2,000th game, the third player after Seo Pong-su and Rin Kaiho to do so. He reached 2,500 career games in 2008 (as of then his record was 1770-721 with 9 void). Yi Ch'ang-ho set a world record in 2002 for the fastest player to reach 1,000 wins - 16 years (he was the third Korean to reach this total). In 2010-01 he became the second Korean to reach 1500 career wins (vs. 463 losses - Cho Hun-hyeon at that point led with 1812-748-9). I've never seen Chinese figures for this sort of thing. No more questions, please - it's all on the GoGoD CD. |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden star |
Yuki has now reached 1000 wins. |
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| Author: | gowan [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden star |
These various 1000 wins statistics remind me of the US baseball stamina records like number of hits (Pete Rose, Ty Cobb) and Cal Ripken, Jr.'s record streak of games played. I think these records are regarded more highly than the number of home runs record, for example. Likewise I would regard Yuki's 1000 wins record as highly as some title records in go. Long term consistency is more estimable than spikes of brilliance, imo. |
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| Author: | TMark [ Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Hidden star |
You could add Suzuki Ichiro to that list, as well. Best wishes. |
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