I really hope it happens. People will write books about it. I love books
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| One Of The Best...Ever? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7706 |
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| Author: | hailthorn011 [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | One Of The Best...Ever? |
It may be too soon to broach this topic, but maybe not. Do you think Iyama Yuta will go down as one of the best Japanese Go players of all time? He was the fastest to reach professional 9 Dan in Japan and it's very possible that he could hold all seven of the big titles simultaneously this year. Nothing is a given, of course. But I fully expect him to win both the Kisei (Up 1 currently) and the Meijin titles this year. So what do y'all think? |
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| Author: | p2501 [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
I really hope it happens. People will write books about it. I love books
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| Author: | oren [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
It depends on staying power, but I'd guess he will go down as one of the top Japanese players of all time. |
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| Author: | badukJr [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
I think the fact that he bounces out in the first round prelims of world tournaments speaks more about the overall quality of Japanese Go than him being a great player. |
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| Author: | xed_over [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
Have you seen his NHK game from this week? 井山。無限。(not sure what this means (Iyama. Infinite.), its the comment on the Empat Puluh site http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~bg2t-tkg/nhk/nhk.html (this link will be a different game next week)) |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
xed_over wrote: ... (this link will be a different game next week)) I'll save it for posterity. ( Iyama is white ) |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
badukJr wrote: I think the fact that he bounces out in the first round prelims of world tournaments speaks more about the overall quality of Japanese Go than him being a great player. But as long as there is a clear group of his contemporaries that he can not successfully compete with, I think it would be nonsense to label him the "best". Unless he can raise the level of his game to current international standards, he will just be another so-so pro (the big frog in an increasingly irrelevant, though wealthy, pond). He will likely make more money as a pro than anyone else, so for a certain definition of "best pro" he might fit the bill. However, for any definition based on demonstrated ability and competitive results, I think not. The worst part is that there does not seem to be any likely changes in the near term to the professional organizations in Japan (Nihon and Kansai Kiin) to foster the levels of study and improvement that might raise Japanese pros in general to those international standards or alternatively would grow a new crop of youngsters that would be able to compete. |
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| Author: | cdybeijing [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
I had always been under the impression that Iyama was able to compete with the top international players but chose to devote his time to the domestic titles as they have richer purses and are quite demanding time wise. Perhaps I thought this because I remember the CJK mingren mini-tournament from last year which he won. |
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| Author: | lovelove [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
cdybeijing wrote: I had always been under the impression that Iyama was able to compete with the top international players but chose to devote his time to the domestic titles as they have richer purses and are quite demanding time wise. Perhaps I thought this because I remember the CJK mingren mini-tournament from last year which he won. Iyama also won Gu Li 9p and Choi Cheolhan 9p in a row in 2011 Fujitsu cup. |
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| Author: | golem7 [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
lovelove wrote: cdybeijing wrote: I had always been under the impression that Iyama was able to compete with the top international players but chose to devote his time to the domestic titles as they have richer purses and are quite demanding time wise. Perhaps I thought this because I remember the CJK mingren mini-tournament from last year which he won. Iyama also won Gu Li 9p and Choi Cheolhan 9p in a row in 2011 Fujitsu cup. Yes, 2011 was a good year for him internationally. He also beat Lee Sedol and Gu Li back to back when he won the Bosai Cup (I think this is what you're referring to, cdybeijing?). It's a shame he doesn't play more international tournaments, though. Btw. concerning early round losses: last year Lee Sedol lost in the 2nd round of both the LG and Ing Cup, both to lower ranking professionals. This can always happen in knock-out tournaments, you need more data to judge his strength. Does anyone know his score against the world's best? It seems he didn't really play outside of Japan in the last year or so. Maybe if he gets all 7 titles he'll switch to the international stage? |
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| Author: | Sumatakyo [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
ez4u wrote: Unless he can raise the level of his game to current international standards What does this mean "International Standard"? Aren't we just talking about Korea and China here? And the cream of the crop at that? Korea and China might definitely be stronger in general, but its two countries, not the world. Also, Iyama Yuta would be one of the strongest in those countries too, just not necessarily #1. |
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| Author: | badukJr [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
cdybeijing wrote: I had always been under the impression that Iyama was able to compete with the top international players but chose to devote his time to the domestic titles as they have richer purses and are quite demanding time wise. Perhaps I thought this because I remember the CJK mingren mini-tournament from last year which he won. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't call someone who only plays hard for money one of the greats. Its an affront to the beauty of the game. |
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| Author: | jts [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
badukJr wrote: cdybeijing wrote: I had always been under the impression that Iyama was able to compete with the top international players but chose to devote his time to the domestic titles as they have richer purses and are quite demanding time wise. Perhaps I thought this because I remember the CJK mingren mini-tournament from last year which he won. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't call someone who only plays hard for money one of the greats. Its an affront to the beauty of the game. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't call someone who only plays hard in three-hour games one of the greats. It's an affront to the beauty of the game. |
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| Author: | macelee [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
Iyama hasn't played many international games. Following is a partial list of him against top Korean/Chinese: 0-3 vs Chen Yaoye 1-2 vs Lee Sedol 1-2 vs Gu Li 0-3 vs Lee Changho 0-2 vs Xie He 0-2 vs Kong Jie 0-2 vs Kang Dongyun The sample size is small and does not include games from several one-off events. However I will argue against him being one of the strongest. [Edit] sorry missed these two sets: 1-1 vs Jiang Weijie 2-0 vs Yun Junsang |
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| Author: | hailthorn011 [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
macelee wrote: Iyama hasn't played many international games. Following is a partial list of him against top Korean/Chinese: 0-3 vs Chen Yaoye 1-2 vs Lee Sedol 1-2 vs Gu Li 0-3 vs Lee Changho 0-2 vs Xie He 0-2 vs Kong Jie 0-2 vs Kang Dongyun The sample size is small and does not include games from several one-off events. However I will argue against him being one of the strongest. Well, if he does well in the NHK Cup, I look forward to seeing how he does in the Asian TV Cup this year. Especially considering how well he's been performing at home in recent memory. |
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| Author: | oren [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
I thought the topic was if he was one of the best Japanese players. He will hold many title records in Japan for a long time. However, he is far from being strong internationally since the Korean and Chinese players are stronger than Japan has been for a while. I guess it just depends on what you're looking for. I guess I thought this question was more like "Is Landon Donovan one of the best American soccer players ever". |
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| Author: | hailthorn011 [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
oren wrote: I thought the topic was if he was one of the best Japanese players. He will hold many title records in Japan for a long time. However, he is far from being strong internationally since the Korean and Chinese players are stronger than Japan has been for a while. I guess it just depends on what you're looking for. I guess I thought this question was more like "Is Landon Donovan one of the best American soccer players ever". That actually is how I meant it. That's why I specified Japanese in the original post. I suppose I should have clarified this sooner though. |
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| Author: | jts [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
I don't know, he went 1-1 against international opponents in 2012 and 5-5 against international opponents in 2011. The numbers are so small that it's hard to make a definitive case one way or another, but he's definitely been dominating in Japan in the last few years, and posting decent international results at the same time despite putting a huge amount of energy into contesting all those domestic tournaments. I don't think anyone is claiming Yuuta was awesome when he was still a chubby kid with braces. If anyone is allowed to claim to be "one of the strongest" it would be someone like Gu Li, right? But he went 20-18 against international opponents in 2012, and 10-8 in 2011. I'm sure there is some Korean or Chinese player who has a better raw winning percentage, but going toe-to-toe with the best players in the world and winning about half seems to be good for anyone. |
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| Author: | ez4u [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
jts wrote: ... but going toe-to-toe with the best players in the world and winning about half seems to be good for anyone. Good, yes. And the step from 'Good' to 'Best ever' is...? |
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| Author: | tapir [ Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: One Of The Best...Ever? |
badukJr wrote: I think the fact that he bounces out in the first round prelims of world tournaments speaks more about the overall quality of Japanese Go than him being a great player. If you are going to deride Japanese Go at least get your facts straight. When he isn't seeded into the main tournament he (as most Japanese top players) usually doesn't participate. -> He doesn't play preliminaries at all, even with less than stellar records internationally it is very hard to lose in the preliminaries if you don't play them. |
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