Life In 19x19
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Censorship in L19
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4830		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
[admin]
Of course there is censorship on L19, as there is on any well-moderated forum. There has to be. No matter how many times mods ask for civility and on-topic posting, there is always someone who has to push it too far. So we censor them.

Where does it end? With civility. If we go too far, it ends with members leaving to a competitive forum, and we know that, so we have motive to not overdo it.

There is a TOS for this forum. We recommend that you read it sometime.
[/admin]
Author:  topazg [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
A member who has since left wrote:
I think the censorship was done with good intentions, but I want you to consider where that road end...


[mod]Any censorship done is done in conformance with the TOS of the forums that everyone signed up to when they registered. For my part, I tend to censor rarely, and only when I see the civility of a particular thread threatened, but anything that breaks the TOS risks being censored.[/mod]

A member who has since left wrote:
I believe that we with unprejudiced exposure to each others differing cultures can create better understanding.


FWIW, I agree with you entirely. However, I also suspect that the vast majority of humans couldn't give a monkeys about better understanding. I think most people either agree with the other, or don't care to understand the other, and would rather just state they are offensive / wrong / prejudiced etc etc etc. Most prejudices come from inside, and so there's no such thing as unprejudiced exposure, just exposure. It's automatically prejudiced by who posted it, the context of the thread in question (for example if I believe the premise for a thread is incorrect, and someone posts a view or opinion supporting that premise, I'd automatically be predisposed to be prejudiced against that view or opinion), and possibly even the originator of the material (i.e. the person who the poster is quoting).
Author:  daal [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
Couldn't give a monkey's what? :o

Here we see Topazg's demonstration of self-censorship, which is also an option one might consider in order to achieve such noble goals as harmony and understanding.
Author:  topazg [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
daal wrote:
Couldn't give a monkey's what? :o

Here we see Topazg's demonstration of self-censorship, which is also an option one might consider in order to achieve such noble goals as harmony and understanding.


On that note (ok, not really), the origin of "brass monkeys" to refer to cold weather is fascinating.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
Topazg wrote:
A member who has since left wrote:
I believe that we with unprejudiced exposure to each others differing cultures can create better understanding.


FWIW, I agree with you entirely. However, I also suspect that the vast majority of humans couldn't give a monkeys about better understanding...


Actually, the majority do. It is not that we don't wish to understand other cultures, rather that we don't wish to be pressed into understanding other cultures here on this forum. This is a go-oriented forum. We wish to understand go. Anything else is incidental.
There are other forums for other topics.
Author:  hyperpape [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
topazg wrote:
FWIW, I agree with you entirely. However, I also suspect that the vast majority of humans couldn't give a monkeys about better understanding...


Actually, the majority do.


I can't think of a good way to disprove this, but I sure wish I got to spend time around the same majority as you.

I fondly remember the MLK day someone walked up to me and said "happy Black people day." 'Cept he didn't quite say it that way.
Author:  cdybeijing [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
A member who has since left wrote:
Joaz has now told me that what I have believed to be contributions to L19 merely is trolling and that it's unwanted.

I'm sdk and I don't feel that I can make any valuable contributions to the pure go discussions. I have however seen go as an inseparable part of life, so I have tried to make other contributions. These are apparently harming L19. This was never my intention. I only tried to make L19 a better place. Obviously I failed. :sad:

I apologize and will not continue.

\begin{lurking}


Just go back to being CarlJung then :)
Author:  gaius [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
EDIT: just received a long PM by Joaz, and I'll take back some of my words.
Author:  Horibe [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
A member who has since left wrote:
Joaz has now told me that what I have believed to be contributions to L19 merely is trolling and that it's unwanted.

I'm sdk and I don't feel that I can make any valuable contributions to the pure go discussions. I have however seen go as an inseparable part of life, so I have tried to make other contributions. These are apparently harming L19. This was never my intention. I only tried to make L19 a better place. Obviously I failed. :sad:

I apologize and will not continue.

\begin{lurking}


Well, I can only assume it was in a private message - I do not get that from Joaz' public posts.

It seems all the posters I like are leaving. Let me say I disagree that the "censorship" here is abused, or substantial or a problem. I think, to the extent humans can, the mods here are doing a good job. I have disagreed with Joaz a time or two, but to his credit, he also has the capability of admitting a mistake - which is something I admire.

Helel - I love your posts, they seem indeed to be from the dark side, and if I beleived you meant them all completely and sincerely, I would worry about you. But you are no troll - and you add a wonderful snarky - obtuse but most often on point edge to discussions.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
daal wrote:
Couldn't give a monkey's what? :o


Couldn't give a monkey's expletive deleted :shock: .

That's the proper form. :)

See "The Available Data on the Worp Reaction", by Lion Miller. ;) ;) ;)
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
Helel wrote:
I write this post because I some time ago was censored when I posted a painting of go players priorly posted by breakfast elsewhere.
I think the censorship was done with good intentions, but I want you to consider where that road end...

I question censorship, because I believe that we with unprejudiced exposure to each others differing cultures can create better understanding.
My fear is that without empathy and understanding, there can be only the stockpiling of guns, and the endless war.


These are a few of the most eloquent lines you've penned on this site, and I wish I could agree with them without reservation.

Also, you're one of the most entertaining posters. Perhaps what you do is trolling, but it's friendly trolling, and it makes me smile. If other trolls would take a lesson from you, the world would be a better place. On the other hand, you might accomplish your goals better by learning where the line is-- not so that you can avoid crossing it, but so that you can cross it in ways that won't get auto-modded; you could at least leave the mods with a moral dilemma each time. Frog in boiling water and all that; crossing the line by 5% 100 times is bound to be more effective towards your stated goals than crossing it by 100% a few times and getting modded.

Should there ever be censorship? Perhaps; if any of you recall inigo-weiqi from back in the day-- posters that lower the quality of the content and discussion harm the site; in retrospect he should have been banned as soon as it was clear that he lacked the capacity to understand that he wasn't brilliant. But Helel is not like that.

And nudity, language, violence, should they be censored? I have differing opinions for different content, but it's possible that I'm more likely to agree with Helel than a random citizen of my own country. However, I don't come to L19 to fix the US's restrictive (or not) social mores. I come for go.

P.S. It's "a monkey's donkey", of course.
Author:  quantumf [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
I would have been violently opposed to the banning of Inigo-weiqi. Yes, people battled to understand what the hell he was up to, and there was the small danger that his ludicrous statement could have been accepted at face value if they had come up in search results, but actually I enjoy the cognitive dissonance, confusiong and, ultimately, entertainment created by posters like that. And for what it's worth, I very much enjoy Helel's posts.
Author:  hyperpape [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
gaius wrote:
...nazi-ism...
Just go away now.

On another note, I don't think it's necessarily about offense. One painting Helel shared featured half naked women. I would not have called my reaction taking offense, but I still got that this wasn't really supposed to be on the boards, for perfectly fine reasons.
Author:  jts [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
Personally, I think the moderators should focus less on censoring and instead use their mighty powers to make grammatical corrections. Also, I'm hoping someday Helel will bring us donuts.
Author:  gaius [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
hyperpape wrote:
One painting Helel shared featured half naked women. I would not have called my reaction taking offense, but I still got that this wasn't really supposed to be on the boards, for perfectly fine reasons.

"nazi-ism" might indeed be a bit much, but I exaggerate to make my point. If a guy whose posts I enjoy decides to stop posting due to overly active moderation, then it annoys me. So I'll provoke a bit:

Image

There. A naked dude. If posting this is offensive, feel free to ban me.

EDIT 2011/10/14: please forgive my usage of the word "nazi", it was the first word that came to my mind yesterday, but obviously it's stupid of me to use it here. Apologies!
Author:  daniel_the_smith [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
<off topic>Photos do not do that justice. I didn't understand what the big deal was until I saw it in person. It's an amazing piece of art.</off topic>
Author:  Magicwand [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
i think USA is going too far with censorship and politically correct idea.
if i see a black man i want to say that he is black.
but i am forced to call him aferican american while he has nothing to do with aferica.
this dont make any sense.

i got it!! it might offend some percentage of people!!
how about rights of many others who wants it.

if it is sexual in nature..i think need to be censored but simple naked body of a women?
i am sure more than half of the people in this forum will enjoy them.

good trolling is many times amusing and think is beneficial in some ways.
unless almost everyone in this forum agree that it needs to censored ..do not censor.
that is my opinion
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
Helel, I enjoy your posts and don't think they're unwanted at all.
Author:  TMark [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
Some among you may remember the depths that rec.games.go sank to when it was unmoderated and at least one character decided that he could post anything to the group on the grounds that a) he was a go player, b) the item interested him, therefore c) it must be shown to all go players. There was no way to stop the stream of crap that appeared, as well as the spam. Fortunately, having a moderated group keeps down the level of personal insults as well as political off-topic postings. I have no problems with the present moderation and hope it continues in a suitable moderate way.

Best wishes.
Author:  Chew Terr [ Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Censorship in L19
As the person who moderated the post in question, I feel that I should make a response (and now I have drunk enough coffee to do so reasonably lucidly).

Two things: First, I personally don't think that I have been offended by anything that Helel has posted, and I tend to enjoy many of his jokes. My 'censorship' of occasional posts has more to do with other people.

Situation A: a forum-goer's boss seeing nudity over his/her shoulder and gets the forum-goer in trouble. Some would say 'Oh, you shouldn't be on the forum at work in that case', but we all know these forums would be a lot less active if no one posted from work.

Situation B: A new member joins the forum, and happens to see something potentially offensive first. While we more or less all know each other well enough to understand when a joke is made, one cannot expect new users to be able to tell. This could risk scaring off new users who don't know better.

Situation C: Imagine that Person X is a 12-year old shodan living with his or her parents. A parent happens to see something 'questionable', and bans the kid from the forum. While not the intended audience, the parent would have judged the site based on the small 'inappropriate' subset, and we would have lost a member.

These are several situations in which I could see moderation being reasonable sorts of preventative measures. None of them involve close-minded forumgoers, but all of them potentially harm other forumgoers. I'm not talking about keeping things G-rated. I'm just saying we should be polite enough to take into consideration that there could be unintended consequences for others if we're not careful.

And the second part of the 'two things' I mentioned previously: I almost never moderate a thread unless it has been reported as a problem by other forumgoers. So it's less a matter of 'CHEW TERR DOES NOT LIKE! CRUSH!', than a matter of 'Ah, people have expressed that they are mildly offended, or are concerned about how things look to outsiders. I should probably remove a questionable image and explain why the image was questionable to the poster'.

If anyone has suggestions for how I should moderate in the future, I'm all ears, whether in this thread or via PM. At the very least, I may be less likely to remove images that are in hide tags and labeled as not safe for work (NSFW). That way, the Forumgoer Doe has some input on whether or not they want to chance it. But really, far from holding people to certain standards to impose my own ideals on them, I really just try to keep an eye out for stuff that I could see being taken in a way that is unintended. I have plenty of outspoken opinions of my own, but unless they relate to the Sanrensei fuseki, you'll rarely see them here. Here, I value the sense of community, but I tend to be focused on go. =D

Long story short: I think nobody really wants either 'overarching censorship' or 'no moderation at all'. We, as mods, try to tread a middle ground where everyone can be pretty content.
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