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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #31
Post #1 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:50 am 
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BLACK TO PLAY.
I WISH PEOPLE PUT YOUR RANK AND LET ME KNOW HOW LONG IT TOOK FOR YOU TO GET THE ANSWER.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #31
Post #2 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:22 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O B X 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 1 2 O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


This problem seems more complicated than the other one. White seems to be a dead shape in the corner this way. This was the second path I considered, after 1 at 2 and 2 at 1, which didn't seem interesting for black. I only spent about 20 seconds on this, because I was trying to answer quickly. If I'm terribly wrong I'll think much longer on the next ones... NB playing 2 at 3, black now wins the liberty race, it seems.

Edit: 5 at the marked stone.

And yes, I missed an obvious variation and am wrong =o


Edit again:
After a cup of coffee and some sulking, I now think this is the answer:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O X X 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a b 1 O 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . c d 5 e 3 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

And white has shortage of liberty problems. Either 6... a c b d or 6... b d e recapture happen.

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #31
Post #3 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:36 am 
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I'm apprx. 9k and spent about between 3-5 mins (probably more like 5... its late and I lose track of time easy) on this problem...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X 7 X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O B X 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 1 2 O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


5 is played at the marked stone, 6 to the right of that, 8 at the marked stone, 9 can be played in a few spots to prevent the corner eye... I like the corner point...

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #31
Post #4 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:41 am 
Gosei
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Jordus:
:w2: @ :b3:

I thought the same as you, in fact I posted it as well, making me look rather silly.

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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #31
Post #5 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:42 am 
Gosei

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First attempt was this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


But I couldn't deal with this (30 seconds of time taken to refute):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O X X 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 3 anywhere else
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 1 4 O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


So, finding an alternate (2 minutes):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 1 O 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 5 4 7 |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . 2 |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . X O O 1 |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W B S B |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W B S B |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Too easy, gotta read a few alternatives for W resistance:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O X X 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 1 O 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . 7 . 5 . 3 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Nice! 10 minutes total time, KGS 4k.
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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #31
Post #6 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:09 pm 
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@loons
what about :w6: at b in your second example.. I think that leads black to be captured...
*Edit* better explanation: :w6: at b... that forces black to play :b7: at e to prevent the capture... then :w8: at d... black is dead...

I dont see whites snapback if they ignore e working because of too many white liberties...

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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #31
Post #7 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:25 pm 
Gosei
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Jordus:

Why, pray, would you want to prevent that capture?

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #31
Post #8 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:29 pm 
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@loons

If you dont prevent the capture, how do you plan on making it work... using the snapback doesnt seem to work because of the two liberties that open up for the left white group when the exchange is made

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Offline kokomi
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #31
Post #9 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:53 pm 
Lives in gote
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kgs 6k, about 1 minute, but i'm unsure about my answer
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X 7 X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O X X 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 1 2 O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


:b5: = throw in

the other one i read is

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . X O O 8 |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O X X 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 O 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . 5 9 |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #31
Post #10 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:58 pm 
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@kokomi

in your second variation I think :w4: at :b7: instead kills black...

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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #31
Post #11 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:46 pm 
Gosei

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Jordus wrote:
@loons

If you dont prevent the capture, how do you plan on making it work... using the snapback doesnt seem to work because of the two liberties that open up for the left white group when the exchange is made


@Jordus

My solution matches Loons', but gives part of the continuation. Here's how it would play out:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O X X 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 1 O 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . 7 . 5 . 3 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O S S 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 S O 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . 7 . 5 8 3 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . X O O S S 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 9 O 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . 7 . 5 S 3 . |
$$ ----------------------------[/go]


White is left with only one eye.
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #31
Post #12 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:19 pm 
Gosei
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I love that everyone but Marcus thought of the same wrong answer first

Edit: Including Marcus, though he caught onto it a bit faster than the rest of us :P

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: L & D Series from cyberoro (1D~4D) problem #31
Post #13 Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:21 pm 
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@Marcus
I see.... i never thought of :b7:

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