Non-joseki: a pincer so wide...

aurik · #1

...so wide that it's not even really a pincer. The question is how to respond?

Here are a bunch of my thoughts. Please point out any omissions or mistakes I have made, moves I have overlooked, or maybe tell me I'm just completely off base. I would appreciate any feedback!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c The opening situation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Had two games last night where my opponent that really liked to play :w6:

, and he won both games by a comfortable margin. After sleeping on it, I feel like I let him get too much cash from his opening play--particularly, large, secure corners--and I wasn't able to get reasonable compensation. Then we just split the rest of the game and I end up down by 10 points without komi.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm7 Is this really enough? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , 3 . 5 . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 X 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 0 . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here's how the play evolved after the "pincer". Net result is W takes a large bottom left -- about 16 points securely -- and B gets a large top left -- about 18-20 points securely. And :b5:

is one space closer to the upper right compared to :w10:

However, I feel really bad about :b1:

, this extension now seems cramped and ultimately those 4 stones seem overconcentrated, only holding a potential 3-4 points and not even 100% secure. The W structure above it is only 3 stones and seems just more effective and light. So even though I have sente and a slight cash advantage, I don't like this result all that much (cue someone telling me it's fine)

So anyway, I've been spending some time thinking of how I can get a more pleasing result.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc The first option is always tenuki $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . e c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Especially with such a loose move, my first idea was to simply tenuki. On this board there's some good options: enclosing the upper left or approaching the bottom-right. Right now I'd probably play around 'a', but certainly there's a lot of big moves to be had. If I do tenuki, what can I expect to happen locally with :b5:

? I've marked a few of white's local options (b through e)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 The "real" pincer" $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 3 O 5 . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . 8 2 4 . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In response to the counter-pincer, jumping into the 3-3 probably reverts to the close pincer, jump into 3-3 pattern. But, the original :w6:

exchange now looks a bit slow for W; without that exchange W might prefer to approach the corner from the top side. So this looks good for black to my untrained eye.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 The kick $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The kick seems almost unplayable if the :b7:

tenuki was to enclose the upper corner. Yes, it overconcentrates B along the side (:b11: should be one space farther if not for the checking stone :w5:

) but

is virtually necessary, making this gote, and the W group still looks fragile. B somewhere around 'a' seems like a natural way to press on the group while building the top side, making a later move on the top side star-point big profit.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 Taking the corner in sente $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . 1 . . . . a . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

W's extension here (or a reasonably similar extension) looks playable.

Because of :w6:

, taking the corner with :w10:

seems out of the question--b will make an ideal formation with :b11:

, which induces the same upper-left board position as the previous branch ("the kick"), except that B is even more secure with the lower-left-side group and has a share of the corner to boot.

So, W will choose a variation that gives up the corner. I think that :b15:

is the proper move here (because of :w5:

). This sequence gives B sente, so I think I would be happy here. W has very few points for having given up 2 corners. Next move I would probably look around'a' (to check the wall's influence and split the bottom side) or 'b' (approach from the open side).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 The footsweep $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 5 . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is where I get stuck. Given my opponent's propensity to play the footsweep later in the joseki, I'm sure I need a good follow-up from this position before I would feel confident playing tenuki with :b7:

. Generally my response to the footsweep would be the descent, but this reverts to the original diagram: the extension ends up being cramped. Building a wall seems kind of silly with a perfect checking stone :w6:

already on the board. So what other options do we have here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 The footsweep: switching directions $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 8 4 . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 9 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Switching directions seems like an appropriate aggressive response. This variation leads to a fight, but if black can settle on the left side then I think that's good enough to take advantage of :w6:

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 The footsweep: contact underneath $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't know this variation, but I think the goal would be to settle in the corner / along the bottom side without letting W build up enough of a wall to make :w6:

useful.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 Another thought: head off the footsweep immediately $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here's another thought that came to mind as I was summing up my thoughts. Since the footsweep is the move that is bothering me most, why not head it off immediately? Sliding under :w4:

makes miai of the 3-3 and the ideal formation at 9-3.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 Taking the corner $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , 4 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks unplayable, as W has 2 groups which owe a move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 Taking the corner $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This reverts back to one of the earlier diagrams, except that B has not yet enclosed the upper corner and the bottom of the wall is not finished. Here I would probably finish the enclosure in the upper left, because an approach there looks pretty annoying.

In fact, after writing all of this, I think I have concluded that my main error was playing :b11:

in the main diagram.

Anyone have any comments?

Bill Spight · #2

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c The opening situation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Plays like :w6:

were briefly popular a few centuries ago, when more weight was given to the side than now. They have not completely disappeared from pro play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Non-pincer $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

IMO,

is not so good. It answers a non-pincer with a non-pincer. Black is not very worried about a White pincer now, since White would be over-concentrated.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Believe it or not, this is a good result for White. :wc:

has prevented an ideal formation for Black.

For :b7:

I would be inclined to play a double approach to the bottom left corner.

mw42 · #3

Thanks for teaching, Bill. I would also play :b7:

as in your diagram. I wouldn't think that white would tenuki, but I agree that your diagram looks nice for white.

Joaz Banbeck · #4

Implicit in Bill's answer is the definition of a pincer which includes 'preventing the pincered stone from making a 2-space extension'. If you can make a 2-space extension without getting near his stones, it is not really a pincer.
It then follows, of course, that if you are feeling crowded by this almost-pincer stone, you should seriously consider making a base with the 2-space extension. ( Although in the given position, I too would probably prefer the slide to B4 )

Do a search on Sensei's for 'base' and 'pincer' for more details.

Kirby · #5

I would double approach the bottom left. His "pincer" is too far to really affect your stone much, and you can come back to attack his stone later if the game flows in that direction.

pwaldron · #6

Echoing everything Bill has said, and adding a couple of points:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 The "real" pincer" $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 3 O 5 . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . 8 2 4 . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This pattern has shown up in pro matches before, with White playing 1 as a first pincer and then extending up the left side. The fact that it shows up in pro games indicates that it's probably playable for both sides.

On the topic of the footsweep, you could consider tenuki or in response. White has played a second-line move in the opening, and still has no clean way to capture the single black stone. If this were a blitz game, I would think of any of the moves from 'a'-'e' and be happy about it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 The footsweep $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , e . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . a . . . b . . . c . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

aurik · #7

Thanks for all the feedback so far! :tmbup:

I will spend some time thinking about the result of the double approach as :b7:

tonight.

gogameguru · #8

I agree with a lot of the points that have been made so far. I'll just add some other thoughts.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c The opening situation $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . b . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As has been pointed out, 6 isn't really a pincer. You can think of it more as a splitting play, because white can make a two space extension in either direction. Splitting plays usually devalue further plays in that area, so your suggestion of a tenuki is a good one.

A through D look interesting. I would play A next. A is more in line with traditional theory, playing in the 'widest' area. B is more of a tactical approach which takes a future play at C into consideration. Playing C immediately as Kirby suggested also looks interesting, but would require careful reading first. D is an ok move too, but isn't that interesting because white's already played at 6.

The key point is that you don't want to do anything that turns 6 into a better move than it currently is. With that in mind, consider this...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm7 Making white 6 into a good move $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 2 O 4 . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . 7 1 3 . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Usually, just looking at the lower left locally, taking the 3-3 point is a good option. However in this game, it turns 6 into an excellent move. 6 has basically become a pincer now. When you consider this, part of the effect of 6 is to stop black from taking the corner territory. This is also why black needs to think carefully about what could happen before playing 7 at 15. Comparing this to the different move order in your diagram is interesting:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 The "real" pincer" $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 3 O 5 . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . 8 2 4 . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black enclosed the top left corner and after white plays 8, invading at 3-3 is fine. This result is not as good for white as the one I showed above, because white would prefer to move 8 to a.

I agree with pwaldron's comment about the footsweep. A loose pincer and a second line move isn't the most firm foundation for an effective attack. You could tenuki again and if you want to play in the lower left after a footsweep, E2, challenging white to spend move moves taking the corner is worth thinking about.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm8 The footsweep: keep eating the corner white $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . b c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a 2 d . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White can choose to take the corner or the outside, so I would still prefer to play in the lower right corner first, to see what happens.

Locally if white plays A, black can play B (or C) - with the aim of next extending along the bottom. If white plays C, play would usually continue bA, wD and black would live in the corner (3-3) next. But in this game, black could also play D from a global perspective. I still prefer not to play this way immediately (because going into the corner still improves white's 'pincer'), but I think 9 is better for black than the attachment at B.

Basically, if white is going to play moves like this, just focus on making your own area bigger and make white come to you (e.g. black E). The left side isn't urgent.

aurik · #9

I wanted to follow-up here with a belated thank you, as I played 2 more games against this fuseki today and tried the double-approach; both times I ended up with what I felt was a satisfactory result!

Non-joseki: a pincer so wide...

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