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 Post subject: A problem from Ishida Yoshio's new fuseki book
Post #1 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:06 pm 
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Ishida Yoshio has recently published a very interesting book called アマの知らない布石・絶対の急所 (The Absolutely Vital Points of the Fuseki that Amateurs Don't Know) on MyCom. It's in Japanese, of course, and quite difficult Japanese at that, but I would like to draw your attention to it.

First, he gives an explanation of the meaning of various approach moves to the 3-4 point, and examples of when and when not to play them. For me, this chapter is truly eye-opening - thanks to this, I'm finding out that certain things I used to believe about the fuseki were upside down.

The next chapters are about strategic themes (namely, 「地の接点」が勝負を決める, 模様の碁の急所, and 一番大きいのは「根拠の手」, which are, respectively, "The Meeting Point of Territories Decides Victory or Defeat", "The Vital Points of Moyo Go" and "The Biggest Move is Making/Taking a Base").

I cannot give a full review yet, because I haven't finished reading the book, but for now I would like to share a problem from the second chapter that I found particularly enlightening.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ishida says "The stones are still sparse, but it is clear that white is using a moyo strategy. To deal with this, if he is aware of the moyo, black faces a crossroads of ways for advancing and strengthening his position."

(まだ石数まらばですが、白の模様作戦が鮮明です。これに対して黒は白模様を意識するか、我が道を行き自陣を固めるの岐路です。)*


Before I give the answer, I would like to ask you what you would do here, and why? When I attempted the problem, I chose the worst out of the three possible answers :lol: Hopefully, I learned something from the failure.

One thing I like about this book is that it stimulates you to think "between the lines". I think Ishida explains enough not to be frustratingly cryptic, but he doesn't spoonfeed you, either.

Finally, I can't help wondering if there's any way to tell if a book is ghost-written or not? I assume the little problem collections from Seibido (成美堂) such as 山下敬吾の初段の実戦詰碁 (Yamashita Keigo's Real Game Tsumego for Shodans) are mainly the work of the backroom boys, but the MyCom series seem a touch more individualistic - for instance, Takemiya's アマが理解できない4つの常識 (The Four Pieces of Common Sense that Amateurs Can't Grasp) not only has a different vocabulary, but a different personality. I would love to think that the MyCom series comes straight from the horses` mouths!

* If my translation was badly offbeam, please correct me :bow:

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Last edited by Tami on Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A problem from Ishida Yoshio's new fuseki book
Post #2 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:17 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . B . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . x x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd probably play 'a' (well, around there). It not only reduces W's moyo possibilities, but also makes playing a move around 'x' easier as well. It also helps Black make a (rather oddly-shaped) moyo as well.

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 Post subject: Re: A problem from Ishida Yoshio's new fuseki book
Post #3 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:26 pm 
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Araban wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . B . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . x x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd probably play 'a' (well, around there). It not only reduces W's moyo possibilities, but also makes playing a move around 'x' easier as well. It also helps Black make a (rather oddly-shaped) moyo as well.


Tami: It's not the right answer, but it is the "second-best" move. Ishida agrees that it erases white's moyo while building your own, but after


[quote="Araban"]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 3 . X . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . x x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


the top still cannot be said to be black's territory. As for invading the left, Ishida gives, in a separate diagram continuing from the correct answer, d as the crucial point.

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 Post subject: Re: A problem from Ishida Yoshio's new fuseki book
Post #4 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:31 pm 
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Tami wrote:
Araban wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . B . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . x x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'd probably play 'a' (well, around there). It not only reduces W's moyo possibilities, but also makes playing a move around 'x' easier as well. It also helps Black make a (rather oddly-shaped) moyo as well.


Tami: It's not the right answer, but it is the "second-best" move. Ishida agrees that it erases white's moyo while building your own, but after


Araban wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 3 . X . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . x x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


the top still cannot be said to be black's territory. As for invading the left, Ishida gives, in a separate diagram continuing from the correct answer, d as the crucial point.
Hmm...fair enough, although the sequence I had in mind in response to the White approach was:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . x x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I feel this way it works better with :b1: ; with the one-space jump, it does look funky.

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Post #5 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:38 pm 
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My first instinct would probably be 'b' for extension, but I guess white would then play 'a', which leads me to think that 'a' is actually the best move.

I'm probably wrong though.


Last edited by shyin on Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #6 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:41 pm 
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Not sure why, but the more I look at the move I considered, the more it seems like I'm trying to fit a square block into a round hole...it's hard to explain. While I can't quite convince myself it's not the best choice, it doesn't leave me feeling satisfied either, a similar feeling I'd get solving a programming problem using a bunch of if statements instead of loops. I will admit that 'b' feels more natural and is easier on the eyes though (and hopefully that's the correct answer in the textbook, otherwise I just don't understand this game).

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Post #7 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:43 pm 
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Sadly, Ishida doesn't say anything about that variation. You're much stronger than me, but don't you think f17, j17, k14 is a slightly cramped-looking shape to have with a wall in the top right?


The answer is not b either. Here is how Ishida handles it:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . X 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . 7 8 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X . . . . 7 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . 8 a . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . b . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I ran out of numbers, so a and b are moves 9 and 10, respectively.

Ishida says that not only does b have no impact on white's moyo, but also that it is possible to lay waste to black's framework while expanding in the upper left.


Worse still for black is to play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . X 5 7 9 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 4 6 8 . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , a . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White, with a, simply builds a grand moyo.


Now for the reading-between-the-lines part.

I also chose this wrong answer, but the refutations show the real reason why b is mistaken. Both the marked black stones in this diagram are on the third line. Therefore, it is very difficult to build a moyo using them. It follows on, indirectly, from the first chapter, which explains how the other corners strongly influence whether you should approach on the third or fourth line. As I said before, one strength of this book is that it guides you to think beyond the explanations, and hopefully that should prove to be a gateway to increased strength.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Last edited by Tami on Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #8 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:51 pm 
Gosei
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Tami wrote:
Sadly, Ishida doesn't say anything about that variation. You're much stronger than me, but don't you think f17, j17, k14 is a slightly cramped-looking shape to have with a wall in the top right?
I think that explains my feeling I posted earlier (3rd post) on trying to fit a square block into a round hole. There is just something off about the top formation in my variation that I couldn't quite put my finger on. I think it's just more me trying to vindicate my move in the best way possible, than to acknowledge that the first move just doesn't quite fit in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: A problem from Ishida Yoshio's new fuseki book
Post #9 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:09 am 
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Thanks so much for sharing!

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 Post subject: Re: A problem from Ishida Yoshio's new fuseki book
Post #10 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:15 am 
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Does Ishida show a continuation after c?

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 Post subject: Re: A problem from Ishida Yoshio's new fuseki book
Post #11 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:57 am 
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hyperpape wrote:
Does Ishida show a continuation after c?


Yes, c is the correct answer. I'll post the explanation later.

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