Who stands better in this fuseki?

Pippen · **#141**

Two diagrams here. I wonder if Black and White, respectively, got it right to protect its stones with 1-3 or if they should treat the stones there lightly and play elsewhere. Also: Is 3 the best move to finish off the sequence?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 3 . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . 2 . . X . . . . X . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . O . . 2 . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . 3 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Uberdude · **#142**

I would usually not play 2 at 3-3 but invade to prevent the opponent getting such nice shape.

Pippen · **#143**

Uberdude wrote:

I would usually not play 2 at 3-3 but invade to prevent the opponent getting such nice shape.

So would u play 1 or any move that anyhow secures these stones there in both diagrams or would u tenuki and treat everything over there lightly? That's basically my question. You are right that 2 in my examples is passive

Shaddy · **#144**

Definitely 1-3 if I can get it. That's a perfect shape on the side.

Pippen · **#145**

Shaddy wrote:

Definitely 1-3 if I can get it. That's a perfect shape on the side.

Even in the 2nd diagram where you could get the corner instead?

ez4u · **#146**

Pippen wrote:

Shaddy wrote:

Definitely 1-3 if I can get it. That's a perfect shape on the side.

Even in the 2nd diagram where you could get the corner instead?

If you are not going to finish the shape, you should not slide into the corner. It just makes your stones heavy.

Pippen · **#147**

ez4u wrote:

If you are not going to finish the shape, you should not slide into the corner. It just makes your stones heavy.

So in my two diagrams above and in your opinion: is 1 the best move there?

Shaddy · **#148**

In the second diagram, unfortunately, I think 1 is better than the empty corner. The mistakes would be labeled -1 and -3 in the diagram. -1 makes White's stones heavier, and -3 is where White forgets that corners are more important than sides.

Pippen · **#149**

So let me ask u guys this:

Black to play, best move?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White to play, best move?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

ez4u · **#150**

Shaddy wrote:

In the second diagram, unfortunately, I think 1 is better than the empty corner. The mistakes would be labeled -1 and -3 in the diagram. -1 makes White's stones heavier, and -3 is where White forgets that corners are more important than sides.

I don't think that it is clear that 3 should be labeled a bad move. White has to consider the whole board situation. That includes the exchange of 1 for 2 here. This makes the possible Black pincer/invasion more severe. If both 1 and 3 are bad moves, then Black should not use Black 2 as claimed in previous posts. Black should just submit and be content to play in the empty corner, right?

Shaddy · **#151**

The moves I'm referring to are minus 1 and minus 3 in the diagram.

Pippen · **#152**

Shaddy wrote:

The moves I'm referring to are minus 1 and minus 3 in the diagram.

I don't understand. Can u give a diagram or explain? What is "minus 1"?

Uberdude · **#153**

minus 1 is the integer one less than 0, it is the solution of x + 1 = 0. So move minus 1 is the move before move 0 which is the move before move 1, i.e. move -1 is the white approach and move -3 is the white split.

Pippen · **#154**

@uberdude: Thx for explaining.

@shaddy: I numbered the moves. I can see your point about 4 being a mistake, but I disagree and it's my style anyway. I rather lose with my Split-Fuseki than to win with some other - I am a Go-Fundamentalist^^. But am I correct that 6 is also considered a mistake in your book? And then of course I'm still interested what you would play for White with move 8 here: free corner or doing something to strengthen the 4-6 combo?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . 4 . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Shaddy · **#155**

There are other, less silly moves you could make to prevent frameworks from appearing. Why not play those?

To answer your question, I don't like 4, but after 5 it's not too bad if W takes the empty corner. After 6, I think W has to add the two knight's moves in your original diagram, leaving Black to take the empty corner.

Pippen · **#156**

Shaddy wrote:

To answer your question, I don't like 4, but after 5 it's not too bad if W takes the empty corner. After 6, I think W has to add the two knight's moves in your original diagram, leaving Black to take the empty corner.

Interesting question about fuseki theory. 6 in the corner let's 4 all alone and weak, while 4 & 6 (like in the diagram) have a light connection, so I'd play 8 in the corner and would feel better with 4 & 6 than if I play 6 in the corner and 4 gets baseless. Hopefully other strong players will give their opinion too.

Uberdude · **#157**

Pippen wrote:

Shaddy wrote:

To answer your question, I don't like 4, but after 5 it's not too bad if W takes the empty corner. After 6, I think W has to add the two knight's moves in your original diagram, leaving Black to take the empty corner.

Interesting question about fuseki theory. 6 in the corner let's 4 all alone and weak, while 4 & 6 (like in the diagram) have a light connection, so I'd play 8 in the corner and would feel better with 4 & 6 than if I play 6 in the corner and 4 gets baseless. Hopefully other strong players will give their opinion too.

I think you are again incorrectly describing things as light (and by implication not bad). I wouldn't usually refer to a connection as light (though I might describe say a 2 point jump as a light jump but that's more describing the status of the group rather than the strength of the connection) but as strong/weak. Stones/groups might be light. In your example I would say 4 and 6 are not connected: if black invades he splits them and they can't connect. 6 is somewhat light in that you can sacrifice it reasonably effectively by jumping into the corner, 4 is not light as there is no good way to sacrifice it and the exchange of it for giving black a shimari is likely to become a bad one.

The big problem with playing 6 is that black answered it by playing 7. That means you can no longer approach from the right side and your potential there is severely reduced. Likewise your potential for a moyo on the lower side is also reduced as it can no longer extend well up the right side for a two-dimensional growth. By playing 6 you are saying you want to do something productive on the top side, and are happy to let black lay first claim on the (upper-) right side. If you played the empty corner for 4 and black played 5 to make the Chinese opening or similar, (which seems to be the framework you are so scared of which prompts your desire to split) then you would not likely not want to approach with 6 on the inside of the top right corner, but from the right side instead.

If you play the empty corner for 6 after splitting with 4 (and black makes the shimari) then if black pincers 4 white should probably approach the top right with 8 from the right side again and sacrifice 4 for now (though it's still kinda dumb) and try to make black capture it in an overconcentrated way whilst white focuses on developing the right and lower sides.

ez4u · **#158**

Pippen wrote:

@uberdude: Thx for explaining.

@shaddy: I numbered the moves. I can see your point about 4 being a mistake, but I disagree and it's my style anyway. I rather lose with my Split-Fuseki than to win with some other - I am a Go-Fundamentalist^^. But am I correct that 6 is also considered a mistake in your book? And then of course I'm still interested what you would play for White with move 8 here: free corner or doing something to strengthen the 4-6 combo?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . 4 . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In the latest GoGoD (via SmartGo Kifu) there are 8,147 examples of the above position after 3. There are zero examples of 4 or its adjacent points so I am thinking that no book will cover it. Pros who want to split Black's position play an approach move in the upper left. Those who are less concerned about it play in the empty corner.

Go-fundamentalist may not be quite the right term here. How about self-confident, independent-thinking amateur instead? :tmbup:

Pippen · **#159**

Let's look at some variations. Here is the basic diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

1. variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . O . . 2 . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . 3 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

2. variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . O . 2 . . O . . 4 . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

3. variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 3 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . O . . . . O 6 2 1 . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

For all three examples I'd say it's an even game. Or would u guys prefer one diagram over another for White/Black?

Shaddy · **#160**

2 is better for Black (White should take the 3-3 instead of jumping), 3 is a disaster for White.

Who stands better in this fuseki?

Who is online