Who stands better in this fuseki?

Pippen · **#21**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

You would prefer this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , 1 5 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . O . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Considering that White has sente now, I'd say that White is better. Like Überdude said: Tewari doesn't show anything if both players'd make a mistake through reordering moves. Tewari only works if in reorder one player plays still only good moves and the other does a weird move.

Bill Spight · **#22**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , 1 5 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . O . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Would you play :b8:

now?

Pippen · **#23**

Here are two further questions, also refering to fuseki:

1) In this diagramm should black play the joseki 6-10 or pincer at a, b or c after 8 (or maybe pincer right at 6?)? I think c after 8 is not good because it harms 5 indirect, but a/b or an immediate pincer after 6? Or is it just a matter of taste?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

2) The fuseki continues with 11, but is 17 a good move and even more: where to play after 18 for black (I usually play at a)? Do you like black's position?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , 1 5 . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . X . . . 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

gogameguru · **#24**

In your original game, playing 11 at E2 is interesting in this opening, because K3 is already on the board and White doesn't have large moyo potential (the board has already been broken up diagonally).

I don't have time to make diagrams at the moment (sorry) but the idea is to make White over-concentrated at the bottom.

Pippen · **#25**

gogameguru wrote:

In your original game, playing 11 at E2 is interesting in this opening, because K3 is already on the board and White doesn't have large moyo potential (the board has already been broken up diagonally).

I don't have time to make diagrams at the moment (sorry) but the idea is to make White over-concentrated at the bottom.

Do you mean my move 8 at E4? I like it because I stabilize my split stone and come out with sente. Is it not the best move there?

Knotwilg · **#26**

Nope, he's talking about :b11:

See below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . O . . $$ | . . . . X O . $$ | . . . . 1 a . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ ---------------[/go]

here is an unusual move, which takes corner territory at the expense of extra pressure at A. Since White already closely extended at the bottom, the exchange may overconcentrate White.

gogameguru · **#27**

Knotwilg wrote:

That's right, suppose the game is like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black 'a' is normal, but is sometimes more interesting. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . a X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If White wants to develop her position at the bottom she can do this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Looking only at the bottom, White's play is locally efficient. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 7 O . . . . . 8 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black still looks better overall because of :b9:

above. But that's because White didn't take the last open corner, which was bigger. I added the marked exchange in the top left to make things clearer.

But how about now?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B W's slightly over-concentrated. We'd like to move the marked stone. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 5 O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . W . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Or, White tries to change it up...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B 'a' and 'b' are miai for Black. And the marked exchange becomes bad for White. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 3 O 5 9 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X O 7 . . O . . a . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Or, White keeps things simple?..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black still seems better than the normal joseki. Big corner, open door (a). $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 3 O 2 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W That's why (or 'a') seems better; as skydyr said. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . W . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The marked stone was still a bit slow though.

Anyway, there lots of other possibilities. These are just some ideas to consider.

EDIT: Fix typos

Uberdude · **#28**

As I said before, playing on the side before approaching the corner gives your opponent opportunities to make your side stone misplaced. David's descent is a nice example of this. (I would have low approached there too).

Pippen · **#29**

gogameguru wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W That's why (or 'a') seems better; as skydyr said. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . W . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But how do you react if Black pincers 1?

Also: If white plays a and Black plays 1 then the sequence you showed then White could simply tenuki at some early point, treating the stones there lightly, couldn't he? That'd be my approach.

Uberdude · **#30**

Which pincer? Probably it should be high. I didn't plan anything in particular but I would expect white to jump or press with the approach stone and then have some running fight.

After David's descent tenuki does seem plausible but you have to be mindful you didn't make any points and not much influence and you leave behind a cut. Were they good exchanges? I'm not saying it's necessarily the case here, but sometimes "tenuki and treat lightly" is a euphemism for "let's try something somewhere else because I screwed up there" (but better than "let's keep digging this hole")

You can't tenuki and play lightly all game, you need to make some points eventually (and black has 3 corners currently).

gogameguru · **#31**

Pippen wrote:

gogameguru wrote:

But how do you react if Black pincers 1?

As Uberdude said, it depends on which pincer. If you suggest a pincer, one of us could probably give you an example continuation. If White has already made the low approach at 5-3 in the bottom left, extending with the marked stone is a normal continuation. This is because White can press Black's lower left corner and trade territory for influence at any time, so the extension is stronger than it looks. However, White doesn't want to just press straight away before extending, because White has many other options depending on how the game develops (e.g. counter-pincer, slide, attachment, etc). And generally it's not a good idea to trade cash for an uncertain investment in the future until you have sufficient information and a clear plan.

From memory, I think this kind of extension is discussed in Opening Theory Made Easy.

Also, I thought you were Black when I first commented, so I thought I was showing you a better move, but now I realize that you were White. Sorry if you didn't find this helpful.

Pippen wrote:

Also: If white plays a and Black plays 1 then the sequence you showed then White could simply tenuki at some early point, treating the stones there lightly, couldn't he? That'd be my approach.

Yes that's possible.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Tenuki is always possible, but Black is thick on the left (just for example) $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 1 6 9 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 3 7 . . W . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Tewari analysis: and are questionable and Black becomes thick $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 8 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 7 4 9 . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 3 5 . . W . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Bill Spight · **#32**

Pippen wrote:

Here are two further questions, also refering to fuseki:

1) In this diagramm should black play the joseki 6-10 or pincer at a, b or c after 8 (or maybe pincer right at 6?)? I think c after 8 is not good because it harms 5 indirect, but a/b or an immediate pincer after 6? Or is it just a matter of taste?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Here is my vote for :b9:

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . 9 . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

in the top right corner invites :w10:

, which works with the :w2:

stone.

Quote:

2) The fuseki continues with 11, but is 17 a good move and even more: where to play after 18 for black (I usually play at a)? Do you like black's position?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , 1 5 . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . X . . . 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I don't like :b17:

, but after :w18:

I like something like :b19:

below, on the frontier of moyos.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . 9 . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , 1 5 . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . 4 2 3 . . . X . . . 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

drmwc · **#33**

FWIW, my take is that black is possibly very slighty better at move 22 (e.g. by around 0.1 of a move).

I'd happily play with white, since middle game noise tends to swamp differences that small.

My reason for preferring black is the stone at K3. This feels overconcentrated - if white had fisrt got the shape in the lower left, next extending at k3 is an eccentric move. It's too close to the thickness.

However, it's a small error. The reply in the top left, starting at move 24, feels like a bigger error to me. White gets a heavy group whilst black takes the corner and gets a wall on the side. I'm not quite sure what the mistake was, but:

Atari at move 34 feels crude and removes a cut a H17.
26 at G17 is ceratinly justifable. You get territory and black's wall is a bit pointless.
Alternatively, since you are thick, 26 as a cut may work.
The 34-36 combination feels very heavy to me. Could you go into the 3-3 point with 34 and play more lightly here?

By the time move 37 appears, I reckon you're about 1 stone behind. So the middle game error was far more material than the opening one...

Pippen · **#34**

Here's a new example, white to play, but where? My feeling was that b was more urgent and important than a, but of course with "a" white simplifies and gets sente while with "b" black will fly to the right side, damaging the white split stone and white will probably end in gote. So, where would u prefer to play and is it still an even fuseki? Also interesting: Suppose white plays b and black plays the normal attachment underneath. Do you push him down to make the split stone work or do you still prefer the joseki where white gets the side?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . a . . O . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

skydyr · **#35**

Pippen wrote:

Here's a new example, white to play, but where? My feeling was that b was more urgent and important than a, but of course with "a" white simplifies and gets sente while with "b" black will fly to the right side, damaging the white split stone and white will probably end in gote. So, where would u prefer to play and is it still an even fuseki? Also interesting: Suppose white plays b and black plays the normal attachment underneath. Do you push him down to make the split stone work or do you still prefer the joseki where white gets the side?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . a . . O . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I'd like the marked stone to be one space to the left of where it is, to be honest. Apart from that, I'm also quite tempted to take something near Q10, since the marked stone makes a corner enclosure smaller for black, and the right side is very big for both players. What order were these moves played in?

I don't think it's terribly unbalanced, but my feeling is that it favours black a bit, because all his stones are coordinated while the marked stone feels odd. If white A, black Q10 or something around there in gote, then white B, black can handle the pressure on his corner stone. If black responds with B instead, and white takes Q10, white provoked black to make his corner enclosure, and black can probably look forward to decent gains by attacking. If white B, black E15 may work well to split.

Pippen · **#36**

Move order:

1. r16 q4
2.d17 k17
3. c4 e4
4. d6 c3
5. b3 d3
6. b5 h3
7. o17

Bill Spight · **#37**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . a . . O . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

One nice thing about "a" is that Black wants to move there, maybe more than he wants to play "b".

skydyr makes a good point about the right side.

A play at "c" threatens "d".

But it does not do much to make difficulties for Black. So I lean towards :w1:

. A closer approach invites a pincer.

Pippen · **#38**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . 2 . . O . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Really?

Bill Spight · **#39**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . 2 . . O . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Pippen · **#40**

@bill: just to make sure: this looks good for white?

Who stands better in this fuseki?

Who is online