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 Post subject: Re: Frequent Yose Position - Which is the Better Move?
Post #21 Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:36 pm 
Gosei
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Impressive analysis Bill :tmbup: . One question:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . X 1 X X O . .
$$ . . X X X O O O . .
$$ X X O O O O . . . .
$$ . . . . . , O O O O[/go]

Black doesn't actually have to respond to this move, as white is not actually threatening to capture the four black stones. However, white can then fill in in sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . X O 3 . O . .
$$ . 4 X X X O O O . .
$$ X X O O O O . . . .
$$ . . . . . , O O O O[/go]


This result is -3. So, if black were to play like this, white would have gained -3/2 points with each move. Since this is worse than the result you showed for black, black should have captured :w1: rather than let white protect it in sente. Is my analysis correct?

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 Post subject: Re: Frequent Yose Position - Which is the Better Move?
Post #22 Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:02 pm 
Honinbo

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Dusk Eagle wrote:
Impressive analysis Bill :tmbup: . One question:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . X 1 X X O . .
$$ . . X X X O O O . .
$$ X X O O O O . . . .
$$ . . . . . , O O O O[/go]

Black doesn't actually have to respond to this move, as white is not actually threatening to capture the four black stones. However, white can then fill in in sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------------
$$ . . . X O 3 . O . .
$$ . 4 X X X O O O . .
$$ X X O O O O . . . .
$$ . . . . . , O O O O[/go]


This result is -3. So, if black were to play like this, white would have gained -3/2 points with each move. Since this is worse than the result you showed for black, black should have captured :w1: rather than let white protect it in sente. Is my analysis correct?


The sequence -- White takes two stones, Black takes back, White plays atari, Black connects on the second line, White takes ko --, should be considered as a unit (except for ko threats). This happens frequently, the hane-connect is a common example. I do not know of a go term for this, but the CGT term is reversal. Yes, considered as individual plays the capture and recapture each gain 1 2/3 points, but that just takes us back to where we began, in terms of points. :)

So you are right, Black should take back. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Frequent Yose Position - Which is the Better Move?
Post #23 Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:20 pm 
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ndkrempel wrote:
Ok, on reflection I don't think black can capture any stones, but seems like black can gain a couple of extra points beyond the obvious ones, so still worth looking into the variations when black plays first and white tenukis.


Yes, I think you are right, I wasn't very thorough. {sigh}

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 Post subject: Re: Frequent Yose Position - Which is the Better Move?
Post #24 Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:43 am 
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ndkrempel wrote:
Ok, apologies for the multiple posts, but thought I should put some substance to my comments. Here is the best I can see for black playing first:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X 9 |
$$ | . . . , . . O X . , . . . . . X X O 7 |
$$ | . . . O . O X . . X . . X X X O O O 8 |
$$ | . . . . O . X . . . . X O O O . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 3 4 . . 0 . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


(The final move is to avoid a seki.)

Note that black got the 7 move in sente here, which he doesn't get in most variations where white has played 5 first.


Many thanks. :)

OK, let's try again. Here I assume AGA territory scoring, which is equivalent to Chinese scoring. (I also include notes on Japanese scoring.) The difference lies in the value of the seki. By AGA scoring White gets two points in the seki and Black gets one point. By Japanese scoring seki is worth 0.



There are some cute plays in there, I think. :)

Edit:

Hmmm. Where does that "Black to play" come from?

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The Adkins Principle:
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— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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This post by Bill Spight was liked by: emeraldemon
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