Prokovich game

Chew Terr · **#321**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

H12 is dual sente and big.

Oh duh, I saw that it was huge, but somehow missed the threat that makes it so sente. Yeah, definitely expecting this, now.

Magicwand · **#322**

71 is solid but it is giving white point 'a' that is too ideal.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm70ACTUAL GAME: Move 70. Points from prisoners: B 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . a . 2 . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

for that reason i will play at 71 if i had to play there.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm70ACTUAL GAME: Move 70. Points from prisoners: B 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . 2 . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

going high is also an option

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm70ACTUAL GAME: Move 70. Points from prisoners: B 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , 2 . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

71 below is slow but it is well worth one move and i like this move.
i think this is the best move i can comeup with.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm70ACTUAL GAME: Move 70. Points from prisoners: B 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

gaius · **#323**

Magicwand wrote:

71 is solid but it is giving white point 'a' that is too ideal.

Is that really so? While thinking about this position, the three-point extension was actually the one that I discarded first... It leaves behind a glaring invasion point which you'll probably have to defend at some point, and white still has a good shape point left at this 'a' (not that he'd necessarily have to play there immediately). I personally like 'c', but if I would want to put more pressure on white, I would play 'b' instead, as that doesn't give white any good shape point. I might be wrong, but to me, your move feels a bit like an "in-between" move that only half accomplishes two goals...

'd' also feels good; even though I would personally be afraid that it's just a notch too slow, it might very well be the best move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm70 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . a b 2 c . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . d . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

gaius · **#324**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

H12 is dual sente and big.

It's double sente for sure. So the question is whether this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm70 My prediction $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . 2 . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O # . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is really better for black than this (71 added for reference and because I like it):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm70 My prediction $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . 2 . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O @ a . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X # , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think I slightly prefer the second diagramme for black, so I would not feel the need to make this exchange now. It's subtle though...

EDIT: looking at it again, the black hane at 'a' might even be better than this

Magicwand · **#325**

gaius wrote:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

H12 is dual sente and big.

It's double sente for sure. So the question is whether this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm70 My prediction $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . 2 . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . @ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O # . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is really better for black than this (71 added for reference and because I like it):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm70 My prediction $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . 2 . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O @ a . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X # , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think I slightly prefer the second diagramme for black, so I would not feel the need to make this exchange now. It's subtle though...

EDIT: looking at it again, the black hane at 'a' might even be better than this

your first diagram only helps white.
your second diagram only helps black.

in my opinion both move sucks. let's observe who will play sucky move first

dfan · **#326**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm71 ACTUAL GAME: Move 71. Points from prisoners: B 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X 1 O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

xed_over · **#327**

dfan wrote:

ACTUAL GAME: Move 71.

that seemed unexpected

edit: though there was some earlier discussion of that move between moves 35-40ish.

Joaz Banbeck · **#328**

To figure out why black played that, I think Gaius has the right direction.

gaius wrote:

'd' also feels good; even though I would personally be afraid that it's just a notch too slow, it might very well be the best move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm70 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . d . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X . O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think that Gaius is right: it is a good move and it is too slow.

Note that white probably has to respond, else black will play like this, in sente:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm73 82 @ 75 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . 8 7 9 X . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O 3 O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O 4 X 1 O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X 5 . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . 6 2 . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So white will respond like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X 2 O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and while black gets a good grip on the center, it is aji keshi: it forces white to become strong.

So black adds one more to the sacrifice stones, keeping the aji of the isolated white stones, knowing that sooner or later white will have to fill some of his own territory to kill the black stones.

Now white does not have an easy answer.

If he tries to answer by eliminating the problem at 'a', he dies.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O a O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O 2 X 1 O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . 3 . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

He can play solid but passive, and black gets 73, with all the bad aji at 'a' in the offing.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm71 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O a O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X 1 O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . 2 . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

BTW, this last diagram is my prediction.

dfan · **#329**

Nice analysis, Joaz.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm72 ACTUAL GAME: Move 72. Points from prisoners: B 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . 1 . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Chew Terr · **#330**

Metagame analysis: If Joaz had correctly guessed a few moves in a row, I think Dfan would have shown them all. So I'm guessing the next move is wrong.

Joaz Banbeck · **#331**

Chew Terr wrote:

...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm72 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . 1 . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That seems a bit too loose to me. When white replies with :w74:

, 'a' and 'b' are both serious weaknesses, and any white move 'c' is a geta-breaker to make 'b' come alive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm72 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . c c c c . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 2 a . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O 3 O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . 1 . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

One example is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm72 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 2 7 . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O 3 O O X 8 . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . 1 . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The net effect is that :b73:

is then gote for black, and white gets the first big move on the upper side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm72 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . 5 . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O 3 O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . 1 . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Whereas with the more solid :b73:

, black leaves the bottom with sente and he gets to be the first to play on the upper side:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm72 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . 4 . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O 3 X X O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . 1 . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

dfan · **#332**

Chew Terr wrote:

Metagame analysis: If Joaz had correctly guessed a few moves in a row, I think Dfan would have shown them all. So I'm guessing the next move is wrong.

I'm trying to go one move at a time, unless it's really obvious, for exactly that reason.

Chew Terr · **#333**

dfan wrote:

Chew Terr wrote:

Metagame analysis: If Joaz had correctly guessed a few moves in a row, I think Dfan would have shown them all. So I'm guessing the next move is wrong.

I'm trying to go one move at a time, unless it's really obvious, for exactly that reason.

Sorry, had to try to game the system. =)

Dusk Eagle · **#334**

No worries Chew, I had been thinking the same thing, not just on this move.

dfan · **#335**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm73 ACTUAL GAME: Move 73. Points from prisoners: B 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · **#336**

this side is big!!
i am guessing white will play here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm73 ACTUAL GAME: Move 73. Points from prisoners: B 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X 3 . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Harleqin · **#337**

Could you please remove the "ACTUAL GAME" label when posting variations of your own?

mitsun · **#338**

Now that B has provoked W to defend at G2, the aji of a cut at "a" is serious. For example, W can probably play the following in sente. If B does not defend, the W cut captures a stone and takes control of the center. So for W to atari the other way (W1 at H6) is aji-keshi and loses sente. I think W will play something like this, then take the large point "b" on top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X a . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Joaz Banbeck · **#339**

I disagree with virtually all of the analysis posted so far about the latest move. Black's play at F18 is making a fist. I predict that white will do somehing to strengthen his center group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm73 My prediction $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . 2 . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand wrote:

this side is big!!
i am guessing white will play here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm73 ACTUAL GAME: Move 73. Points from prisoners: B 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X 3 . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The sequence above is gote AND aji-keshi. If white is willing to play gote, M3 is gote and is way bigger.

mitsun wrote:

Now that B has provoked W to defend at G2, the aji of a cut at "a" is serious. For example, W can probably play the following in sente. If B does not defend, the W cut captures a stone and takes control of the center. So for W to atari the other way (W1 at H6) is aji-keshi and loses sente. I think W will play something like this, then take the large point "b" on top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . b . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X a . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Both the 1-2 exchange and the 3-4 exchange are aji-keshi. And if white does tenuki next, he plays up top around M3, which is way more urgent than 'b'.

dfan · **#340**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm74 ACTUAL GAME: Move 74. Points from prisoners: B 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O O O O O . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . X O O X X X X . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . O . O O X . . X . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . X X O X . . O X . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . O . X X O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Prokovich game

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