Miai values

jts · **#41**

mitsun wrote:

1) Sente and gote are important in deiri counting. The evaluation of a move is not complete without a qualifier like "5 points in gote" or "3 points in sente". Also, reverse sente plays are considered to be worth twice their point swing value.

2) The end result is the same -- when the position is counted, the points are assigned to the side who can get them in sente.

That's certainly how I understand deiri counting - you have to mentally adjust it to miai counting to make it useful. (You don't mention ko, but again, I assume pros are perfectly good at adjusting deiri values to account for moves in ko.) I'm not saying there's anything wrong with using deiri counting if you're really good at mental math, or you learned that way and it's not worth changing. But if miai counting is just an easier way to tally up the same arithmetic, why does JF see it as meaningful if the pros use deiri counting? And the answer seems to be that if professionals don't see any value in having a systematic theory of the endgame, there must not be anything valuable to be found there. (Sort of like the story of the economist who refused to pick a twenty off the sidewalk: "If it were really a twenty dollar bill, someone else would have taken it already!")

John Fairbairn · **#42**

Jts : I have a feeling you may subconsciously be trying to make what happens in pro play fit your understanding of deiri, while your conscious brain is making an effort to get at the facts - a common enough problem of having to unlearn something that we all face.

Assuming that's somewhere near the truth, my further guess is that you may be overlooking the process Yi gave under the three ways of counting, and listed under the precise method. As I understand it, he is effectively making the qualifications you are seeking by encapsulating them there - and in a very practical way, I think.

Shinkenjoe · **#43**

snorri wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

Unfortunately, Matthews relies in part upon Tavernier, but Tavernier made a mistake.

John is right. You are cruel. Not for the reason he states, because now there's a danger you'll ruin my vacation. Or maybe that is the reason he states?

What a rabbit hole go has been. A co-worker a long time ago told me not to learn it, but did I listen? No. Now what junk fills my head! SGF Parsers. Obsolete josekis. Poorly understood bits of phrases in 3 different Asian languages. Araban's ever-changing avatars. KGS ratings math. Now, sadly, CGT.

Mixing metaphors, the blue pill doesn't work any more if I take it now, does it?

Just keep on drivinng and enjoy!

Bill Spight · **#44**

Bill Spight wrote:

snorri wrote:

For local tally differences of 1 (one-sided sente) or 2 (double gote) one can muddle along with deiri values fine. I like the fact you can often add miai values, but that's not enough to sell most people. But I think where they really start to be of interest is when the local tally difference is some other number, like 3 or 4, which often happens in ko positions.

See quickly sections 8 and 9 in Charles Matthews' Setpiece Ko series, part 6 on Ko Accountancy. It shows something practical.

Unfortunately, Matthews relies in part upon Tavernier, but Tavernier made a mistake. He did not take the rest of the board, aside from the ko and threats, into account. You can do that through the concept of temperature.

My apologies to Charles Matthews. Taking another look I see that he did point out the flaw with Tavernier's model. Somehow I had gotten the impression years ago that he had not pointed it out.

Miai values

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