Lake, Nakade, Eye, Eyespace and Related Terms

Cassandra · **#41**

Perhaps "meteorite" might be more appropriate ?

Let it have the "right" size, plunge into the lake, and all the water will boil away ...

Bill Spight · **#42**

Cassandra wrote:

If "nakade" is used in Japanese to name a MOVE, this move is the one that occupies the vital point of the eyeshape. Thereafter, moves ("te") are used to occupy further points of the eyeshape.

If "nakade" is used in Japanese to name a SHAPE, this always happens in conjunction with "xx moku" (= xx points), and names the EMPTY area of the board. E.g. "gomoku nakade" is "five-points Nakade". This means that the Japanese do not have the opponent's stones in mind that occupy parts of the eyeshape, but always the resulting (empty / unoccupied) shape after capturing these stones.

Actually, five point nakade is used to refer to certain groups of five stones within an opponent's eye such that it can be prevented from becoming two eyes. See John Fairbairn's comment at http://senseis.xmp.net/?NakadeExample2%2FDiscussion and the definition (in Japanese) here: http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/srch/jn/中手/m0u/ .

Cassandra wrote:

If you wanted to overcome a historically grown, and possibly unclear / bewildering, usage of "Nakade" in English, you simply should choose another (own) technical term.

Second the motion.

Bill Spight · **#43**

RobertJasiek wrote:

As you might know, I have got rid of most Japanese words and prefer to use only the very few, for which there is no good English alternative: ko, gote... For nakade (stable position), I have not found a suitable English replacement yet. The closest candidate at the moment is: stable lake.

Hmmm. How about something like single eye? If it is really stable.

RobertJasiek · **#44**

Single eye does not fit into my terminology with its tendency to see eyes in life rather than in death. The searched metaphor must express the almost-fillable indivisble. In go terms related to eyes and nakade, 'stable' is the correct adjective, but I do not see a single-word metaphor.

Cassandra · **#45**

Bill Spight wrote:

Actually, five point nakade is used to refer to certain groups of five stones within an opponent's eye such that it can be prevented from becoming two eyes. See John Fairbairn's comment at http://senseis.xmp.net/?NakadeExample2%2FDiscussion and the definition (in Japanese) here: http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/srch/jn/中手/m0u/ .

This is another valid point of view.
Just a matter of presentation, in my eyes. Usually, it is much easier to visualize something really visible (here: stones) than something invisible (here: empty points). Therefore, it seems natural to find the "group-kind" of presentation in many books. I am sure that you, too, will remember examples of a "combined" visualisation of all the "usual" Nakade-shapes on one 19 x 19 Go board, showing Black's groups only, neither one enclosed by any white stones.

The Nihon Kiin's "Small Dictionary of Go Terms" refers to the empty shape (after capturing Black's group). May be that this kind makes is easier to also access the move on the vital spot.

The most important point -- in my opinion -- is that "Nakade" (used as mentioned above) always refers to the ENTIRE SHAPE of stones / empty points, not to single STONES.

I am well aware that -- if we are talking about MOVES -- "Nakade" is used to name "moves inside", in the majority of cases (thus in "general usage") the move that takes the Nakade's vital point. As a matter of course, you will also be able to find "Nakade" within texts that describe the process of filling-in the inside liberties (in my experience mainly in dictionary-like texts, less in popular-written texts). And John mentioned an even more general usage of this term.

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I am also well aware that my opinion is not based on a solid knowledge of Japanese, but only on what I am able to "view" in Japanese Go books, interpreted with the help of some Japanese-English dictionaries.

Cassandra · **#46**

RobertJasiek wrote:

In go terms related to eyes and nakade, 'stable' is the correct adjective, but I do not see a single-word metaphor.

Are you really sure, with respect to "Nakade" ?

I understand what you have in mind with connecting "stable" to "Nakade", as well as to "eye". But again, this what you have in mind does not fit "common understanding" one hundred per cent.

An eye (here: the single, and only one, of a group) remains an eye, until the entire group becomes captured, independant from its size, and from changes of its size.

A "Nakade" -- according to your definition -- also remains a "Nakade" -- thus "stable" in your eyes -- throughout the entire process of reducing its size.

But -- in "common understanding" -- the six-point Nakade vanishes, as does the five-point Nakade, as does the four-point Nakade, as does the three-point Nakade. None of these "Nakade" remains "stable".

Cassandra · **#47**

RobertJasiek wrote:

The searched metaphor must express the almost-fillable indivisble. ... but I do not see a single-word metaphor.

Did you ever consider that no SINGLE English word will comply with your needs ? Just because you want to name a combination of TWO things ?

Let us use my suggestion of "meteorite" for a tiny moment.

The "meteorite" (= a very special shaped black group) has fallen into the "lake" (= now the one, and only, eye of a white group). The "lake"'s water has boiled away, but a tiny rest remained (= one empty point).

Your aim is to find a name for the combination of the "meteorite" and the "rest of water". This is the "meteorite caldera", but even this means TWO words.

You mis-use "Nakade", just because "Nakade" either names the "meteorite", or the empty room that remains after first filling in the "meteorite"'s surrounding with earth and then lifting the "meteorite" out of his hole (i.e. the now smaller "lake").

Please also note that "nakade" is a compound of TWO Japanese terms, "naka" & "te". So, do you really want to achieve something that even the Japanese were unable to do ?

RobertJasiek · **#48**

Cassandra, stable: as one of the leading researchers in definitions for eyes, nakades and capturing races, yes, I am sure that 'stable' is right. Occasionally, 'settled' is used for this purpose, but this creates unnecessary confusion with an unsettled LD status.

Of course, it does not agree to what you love to call "common understanding", because common understanding might overlook differences between stable and unstable. I do not intend to explain the least common denominator, but intend to specify the details.

A nakade does not always remain stable during decrement of its size, but a temporary unstable state should be answered immediately by recreating a stable state. (This is similar in disturbing kos, with their stable and unstable states.)

If you read my earlier messages, you will notice that I HAVE already considered a phrase of two words.

I never stop trying to do something just because others (here you mention the Japanese) have not succeeded yet.

Cassandra · **#49**

RobertJasiek wrote:

A nakade does not always remain stable during decrement of its size, but a temporary unstable state should be answered immediately by recreating a stable state.

This is your typical way of splitting hairs unnecessarily.

You intendedly disrupt sequences that -- with "common understanding" -- are dead certain connected to each other.

For most Go players (may be all but you) "capturing the opponents group" and "playing on the vital point" thereafter form one "natural" unit. In the context discussed, they would never think of letting the first player play two moves in a row.

RobertJasiek · **#50**

And this is one of the reasons why many players have difficulties with LD solving. Considering moves seperately and re-considering them for every subsequent position are methods improving LD reading, because they ease or enable consideration of multiple threats and of combinations of moves in one part of a group and other moves in other parts of the group. If, however, one perceives as you suggest, it can happen that one already proceeds too far (the subsequent position), before having considered all alternative, relevant moves in the current position. As a consequence, reading mistakes caused by too narrow reading occur.

Cassandra · **#51**

RobertJasiek wrote:

And this is one of the reasons why many players have difficulties with LD solving.

But not in this case, Robert !!!

In this case (let us assume "gomoku nakade" as a concrete example), capturing the opponent's stones says "I have just created the option that one of both of us could play on the vital point." It is neither necessary to add "If you do not play on the vital point, I will do for sure." nor "Oh, in the case that you forgot about the obvious: It is your turn now !"

It makes absolutely no sense in a book on Tsume-Go to permanently have in mind that there was some Yose-Ko elsewhere on the board.

Cutting an elephant into pieces is OK, to prepare the meat for dinner. But atomizing it is overdoing things !!!

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On the other hand, I assess it much too late to clarify on page 80 / 200 of a book that false eyes do not provide any help for living. Not to forget that a player as strong as 20 Kyu should have learned this already, before consuming the book's content.

RobertJasiek · **#52**

Gomoku nakade is such a simple shape that my observation is not relevant for it.

Bill Spight · **#53**

Cassandra wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

Actually, five point nakade is used to refer to certain groups of five stones within an opponent's eye such that it can be prevented from becoming two eyes. See John Fairbairn's comment at http://senseis.xmp.net/?NakadeExample2%2FDiscussion and the definition (in Japanese) here: http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/srch/jn/中手/m0u/ .

This is another valid point of view.

Let me illustrate my point of view with chess terminology. When talking about chess I consider pin, en prise, and Zwischenzug to be chess terms, not English, French, and German, respectively. And as a chess player I would be unhappy if the French decided to use pin with a different meaning than everybody else. Even if they tried to justify their usage by saying, "This is how everybody uses pin in Paris."

As a go term, nakade is a long established term with a clear meaning. (As with all language, fine points of usage may differ among speakers, however.

) Every definition that I have seen says that it is a play inside an opponent's eye. Some add that it prevents the formation of two eyes. (But that point may be left to pragmatics. If you make a mistake and play on the wrong point inside the eye, is your play then not a nakade?) Some sources, like Hayashi, add a second meaning as certain configurations of stones inside an opponent's eye which prevent it from becoming two eyes ( 3 moku nakade, 4 moku nakade, etc.).

Cassandra wrote:

Just a matter of presentation, in my eyes. Usually, it is much easier to visualize something really visible (here: stones) than something invisible (here: empty points). Therefore, it seems natural to find the "group-kind" of presentation in many books. I am sure that you, too, will remember examples of a "combined" visualisation of all the "usual" Nakade-shapes on one 19 x 19 Go board, showing Black's groups only, neither one enclosed by any white stones.

I think I was spared that when I was learning go.

Cassandra wrote:

The Nihon Kiin's "Small Dictionary of Go Terms" refers to the empty shape (after capturing Black's group).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Nakade $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . O X X O O | $$ | O . O O . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O | $$ | . O O , X . . . . , . . . . . X X X X | $$ | O X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X X O O | $$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | O O O . . . . . . , . . . . . , O O O | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . X . O X X | $$ | 1 . O O X . . . . . . . . . X O O X X | $$ | . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I take it that the dictionary would refer to the stone formations inside the corner eyes on the right side as nakade, and also to the move in the bottom left corner, but it would not refer to the eye in the top left corner as nakade.

Cassandra wrote:

May be that this kind makes is easier to also access the move on the vital spot.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Nakade $$ ----------------- $$ | . . O O . . . . $$ | . . O O X X . . $$ | . . O O . . . . $$ | 1 O O , X . . . $$ | O X X X . . . . $$ | O O O . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . .[/go]

I think that we can classify this nakade as a move that reduces White's eye space, rather than a move on a vital point.

Edit: Oops! I don't know what the Nihon Kiin Dictionary would say about the eye in the top left corner, but it turns out that I found more than one place in the professional Japanese go literature back in 2005 that would call it nakade. So I have been arguing against myself.

See the WME discussion forum for the Nakade page on Sensei's Library at http://senseis.xmp.net/?topic=131 .

tchan001 · **#54**

RobertJasiek wrote:

"Simply speaking, a NAKADE is a lake, so that
1. the defender can fill all but one of its intersections,
2. the defender cannot partition it and
3. there cannot be a seki or ko in it."

I think the problem is that you are taking a word for which the go community already has a formed idea of the meaning and you are trying to reduce it to your own specialized meaning.
The normal way is to coin your own word based on the generalized word you derived it from.
So perhaps you should call your term something like "NALAKE" to distinguish your special terminology from what most people use in general for NAKADE. Such is to avoid throwing your audience into confusion as they may not be learning only from yourself.

RobertJasiek · **#55**

tchan, also you say that the go community would have agreed on the meaning of nakade. What, in your opinion, IS this meaning? Which of the 11 possible meanings belong, IYO, to those of the English speaking go community? As long as this is not clarified, the go community has not agreed on the meaning, but is in the process of finding an agreement.

According to a recent edit of http://senseis.xmp.net/?Nakade there seems to be a 12th possible meaning: a shape in its stable state with exactly one attacker's stone on the vital point.

tchan001 · **#56**

I'm saying that nakade is viewed by the community in a much more generalized way than that which you propose. You yourself say that there are 11 to 12 possible precise meanings while your version is very restrictive. Since your definition is very precise, why would you impose that as the only meaning of nakade? Are you saying that if everyone were to adopt your definition of nakade as the correct definition that they would need to define the other 10-11 possibilities as something other than simply nakade?

Hence I suggest that by coining a new word for your precise definition it would help those who have other ideas of what nakade means to know precisely what you mean when you want to talk about your precise definition.

It's like arguing about the definition of "frozen dessert" where you insist that such is chocolate ice cream. What happens when someone wants to talk about a "frozen dessert" which he views as raspberry sorbet in his mind but just can't express it out of the tip of his tongue? Would you insist that you are offering the "frozen dessert" he wants because you are offering chocolate ice cream?

RobertJasiek · **#57**

1) I can agree on using, in new texts to be written, a new word or phrase for the particular meaning of nakade I use. Probably that would be "stable lake".

2) I can agree on nakade having several possible meanings.

3) Does everybody want to agree that nakade has several possible meanings or does somebody insist that [nakade move] is the only valid meaning?

4) Which of the ca. 12 meanings belong to those that everybody wants to see as valid under the name "nakade"? All of them?

5) Should everybody, who writes new texts and wishes to use nakade in a meaning different from what seems to be the default Japanese meaning of [nakade move], invent his own terms or phrases? E.g., should everybody write a) "nakade shape" if he means "shape in which a nakade move can be played", b) "nakade shape" if he means "shape in which a nakade move has just been played", c) "nakade shape" if he means "any shape which the defender can almost-fill, but cannot partition", d) "nakade shape" if he means the inside string(s)? Although we see "position" used in the Go Player's Almanac, "nakade position" is a dubious phrase, because usually position refers to the whole board position. IOW, use of the word nakade does not affect only me, but it affects every writer.

6) As I have explained earlier, my definition can easily be used to derive the other possible meanings of nakade. E.g., a "nakade move" is a play creating a connected part of the board, which the defender can almost-fill, he cannot partition, and cannot become seki or ko.

EDITs.

Cassandra · **#58**

Bill Spight wrote:

I take it that the dictionary would refer to the stone formations inside the corner eyes on the right side as nakade, and also to the move in the bottom left corner, but it would not refer to the eye in the top left corner as nakade.

Also starting to split hairs, Bill ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------- $$ | X X O O . . . . $$ | X X O O X X . . $$ | 1 X O O . . . . $$ | . O O , X . . . $$ | O X X X . . . . $$ | O O O . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Nakade $$ ----------------- $$ | . . O O . . . . $$ | . 2 O O X X . . $$ | O . O O . . . . $$ | . O O , X . . . $$ | O X X X . . . . $$ | O O O . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . .[/go]

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Bill Spight wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Nakade $$ ----------------- $$ | . . O O . . . . $$ | . . O O X X . . $$ | . . O O . . . . $$ | 1 O O , X . . . $$ | O X X X . . . . $$ | O O O . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . .[/go]

I think that we can classify this nakade as a move that reduces White's eye space, rather than a move on a vital point.

I would name this kind of move "Horikomi", but "hori-komi" cannot be found in the Nikon Kiin's Small Dictionary.
Instead, this kind of move is referred to as "uchi-kaki".

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Just to clarify the characteristics of this shape ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Bulky shape 1 $$ ----------------- $$ | T T O O . . . . $$ | T T O O X X . . $$ | . T O O . . . . $$ | . O O , X . . . $$ | O X X X . . . . $$ | O O O . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Bulky shape 2 $$ ----------------- $$ | T T O O . . . . $$ | T T O O X X . . $$ | T . O O . . . . $$ | . O O , X . . . $$ | O X X X . . . . $$ | O O O . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Line of false eyes $$ ----------------- $$ | . . O O . . . . $$ | . . O O X X . . $$ | . . O O . . . . $$ | M O O , X . . . $$ | O Z X X . . . . $$ | O O O . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . $$ | . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . .[/go]

There might be two vital points inside, so it seems preferable to have a preparatory move available that reduces this amount to only one.

Bill Spight · **#59**

Regarding the meanings (plural) of nakade, I have stated my leaning towards descriptive definitions, rather than prescriptive ones. I have done some searching on the Web, and found, as I said, definitions with either one or two meanings. There is no question that the root meaning is a play inside an opponent's eye. That is what all sources say. Some definitions that I have found in recent searches, and the Hayashi encyclopedia add a second definition as certain stones of one player inside an eye of the other player. I found no other definitions.

I have a book by Shimamura that I have mislaid for the moment, and I recall that he talked about nakate (which is a variant pronunciation). I felt hampered by not being able to refer to that book right now.

I had forgotten that I had participated in a Wiki Master Edit (WME) of the Nakade page on Sensei's Library back in 2005. It was easier for me to search the Japanese part of the web back then, why I don't know. And it turns out that I discovered texts that indicated other meanings of nakade. Including a Kansai Kiin site that said that a nakade is a single big eye.

Unfortunately, that link and others no longer exist.

This discussion on SL about the WME, http://senseis.xmp.net/?topic=131 , indicates the results of our research. It seems that I have been arguing against my former self. :shock:

Two meanings are not enough for descriptive definition. We need three, maybe four.

But it is clear that the root meaning is that of an inside play, and any definition must start there. Other meanings are derived from that.

Cassandra · **#60**

RobertJasiek wrote:

4) Which of the ca. 12 meanings belong to those that everybody wants to see as valid under the name "nakade"? All of them?

Dear Robert,

As tchan001 has already pointed out, it makes no sense trying to narrow the meaning of a widespread term with a large variety of meanings.

If I remember correctly, you also use the term "stone" (at least in some of your papers) to name the objects that are placed on the Go board's intersections.

Did you ever play a game of Go, wherein both players used "real" STONEs ("STONE" to be taken literally !!!) ?

Or did you use the context to indentify pieces of plastic, glass, whatever, as "stone" ?

Lake, Nakade, Eye, Eyespace and Related Terms

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