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 Post subject: Re: Lake, Nakade, Eye, Eyespace and Related Terms
Post #61 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:40 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
But it is clear that the root meaning is that of an inside play, and any definition must start there. Other meanings are derived from that.

This is exactly what the Nihon Kiin's Small Dictionary of Go Terms does.

But please be aware that everything with (e.g.) "uchi" in its name has also to do with "inside play".

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 Post subject: Re: Lake, Nakade, Eye, Eyespace and Related Terms
Post #62 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:45 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
I take it that the dictionary would refer to the stone formations inside the corner eyes on the right side as nakade, and also to the move in the bottom left corner, but it would not refer to the eye in the top left corner as nakade. :)

Also starting to split hairs, Bill ?


No, I don't have a copy of the dictionary, and was guessing that it was like the others that I know of. But maybe it would classify that big eye as nakade. That certainly seems to be one meaning, even if it is not in the dictionaries. (I will edit my post accordingly. :) )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Wrong nakade
$$ -----------------
$$ | 4 5 O O . . . .
$$ | 1 2 O O X X . .
$$ | 3 . O O . . . .
$$ | 6 O O , X . . .
$$ | O X X X . . . .
$$ | O O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . X X . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . .[/go]


If Black starts on the 2-1 "vital point" instead of 6, White lives. ;)

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Last edited by Bill Spight on Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Lake, Nakade, Eye, Eyespace and Related Terms
Post #63 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:50 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
But it is clear that the root meaning is that of an inside play, and any definition must start there. Other meanings are derived from that.

This is exactly what the Nihon Kiin's Small Dictionary of Go Terms does.

But please be aware that everything with (e.g.) "uchi" in its name has also to do with "inside play".


Uchi is a general term for a play in a number of games. But yes, a nakade is a kind of uchikomi. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Lake, Nakade, Eye, Eyespace and Related Terms
Post #64 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:07 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
If Black starts on the 2-1 "vital point" instead of 6, White lives. ;)

Yes, indeed.

The problem is somewhat "advanced", just because more than only one "bulky shapes" can be marked, which not all will really become "Nakade".

"More than one" causes that one has to visualize means to "reduce" the "advanced" position to a "simpler", and more "fundamental", one, resulting in one, and only one, "bulky shape".

The marked "line of false eyes" might help you to identify a candidate to begin with.

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Last edited by Cassandra on Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Lake, Nakade, Eye, Eyespace and Related Terms
Post #65 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:24 am 
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Cassandra, the purposes of my definition are to

- explain with which meaning I use it in a text of mine,

- provide a start, from which also the other variant meanings of the nakade meaning complex can be defined precisely, if precision is needed.

Since nakade is a multiple-meanings term, my definition does not want to prohibit the other possible meanings.

***

Since, according to Bill's explanations, nakade has been and can be used by others (even in Japanese) with a meaning functionally identical or closely related to my definition's meaning, now again I think that it is perfectly ok for me to write 'nakade' for the stable lake meaning. It appears to be more problematic to use 'creating a nakade' as the name for a move creating a stable-lake-nakade, because traditional Japanese use would, IIUC, also call the move a 'nakade'.

So whenever a text consistently needs to use and distinguish two meanings of nakade, at least one of them must not be called nakade. If one of them refers to the nakade move, then the other used meaning must not be called nakade, to avoid confusion with the default nakade move meaning of 'nakade'.

So whoever needs two or several terms each having only one meaning better avoids using 'nakade' at all and instead invents new terms.


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 Post subject: Re: Lake, Nakade, Eye, Eyespace and Related Terms
Post #66 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:30 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Uchi is a general term for a play in a number of games. But yes, a nakade is a kind of uchikomi. :)

Sorry,

It is NOT "everything" with "uchi" that has to do with "inside". Ashes on my head.

The inside-"uchi" I had in mind, was "内" / "中".

You are right that "utsu" = "打つ" is used as "to play" / "to move" and turns into "uchi" = "打ち" when used in compounds, e.g. "uchikomi" = "打ち込み" (with "komu" = "to put in" / "to put into" / "to move into").

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 Post subject: Re: Lake, Nakade, Eye, Eyespace and Related Terms
Post #67 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:37 am 
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Robert: your willingness to reconsider your use of nakade is a welcome sign, but I still think you are missing an important point.

I'm really just repeating tchan's point, but none of us here, even if we set ourselves up as a committee of wise men, gets to decide which words the go community prefers. Observation of technical terms in any field suggests that users (a) tolerate a degree of looseness and ambiguity, and (b) welcome a degree of looseness and ambiguity. We can posit good reasons why this may be so. One is that people learn at different paces, and allowing a term to be used in a loose way in the initial stages, with refinements to follow later, is useful pedagogically. Another is that discussions of the field at hand usually involve some measure of entertainment and fashion: both writers and readers want the freedom to use terms in new ways. This may be something as simple as to start using a noun as a verb (e.g. a scapegoat --> to scapegoat).

In addition, while observation also suggests that users are not averse to brand new terms, in this case two points have to be emphasised. One is that, again, it is the go community that gets to decide which new terms are accepted, not the inventor, and the other is that users generally resist more than a couple of new terms at a time. They seem to prefer to see which ones fill a genuine need and/or which ones are going to be fashionable.

Users also seem to resist (very strongly, I find) extensive definitions. Apart from the instant impression of being given complexity where simple entertainment or limited progress is often wanted, we see repeatedly that this quickly gets out of control. You define something as a move in an area, but what is a move, what is an area? What is meant by territory, shape, position, vital point, point, string, group? And all these issues apply in the most basic of basic ideas in L&D: nakade. Sledgehammers and nuts don't do justice to that kind of teaching.

We see all of this in operation at the moment in the UK in the coffee shop and coffee machine explosion. Different companies try to push their own words and so we are suddenly faced with varieties of coffee labelled as lungo, intenso, caffe crema (no milk), barista, cortado, flat white, and new uses of macchiato and Americano (with milk). The result is that you can go into one coffee shop and enjoy a lungo, and the next day go into a shop on the other side of the street and ask for a lungo only to be met by a blank stare. I can even imagine some people stay out of coffee shops because they are terrified of looking like idiots if they say "I want a white coffee" (which gets me many blank stares in the USA, incidentally).

In the case of go, there is the added complication of the influence of oriental languages. There are quite a few players who use (or misuse), say, Japanese terms just to sound swanky, but for the most part what is going on is simply that people recognise that Japanese go teachers/writers have long experience in spreading the game and we are trying to piggyback on that experience. Yet this is awkward for many reasons. Apart from the need to understand the base term, which may be rendered in many ways in English, thus disguising that fact that a technical term is even being used, there are nuances and grammatical usages that do not carry over easily into English.

To bring this specifically back to nakade, what we can say is that Japanese go educators have found it useful (and, more importantly, beginners have found it acceptable) to isolate a couple of areas to concentrate on in this context. One is to identify a small number of shapes (collections of contiguous empty points) that currently represent one eye and which have the potential to be split into two eyes, but which are such that a single play by the opponent at a vital point within that shape can prevent two eyes. For this move they have devised the term nakade, which is unequivocally described (Nihon Ki-in Glossary of Go Terms) as "basically a contraction of naka no te. A move at the vital point for making eyes inside an opponent's territory" (followed up with several examples to show the limits of the context). This is the main usage. In practice, however, it has been found useful to extend the term grammatically, and so elliptical forms such as gomoku nakade (bulky five) have been used, and the noun can be turned into a verb by saying nakade suru.

However, on the basis of experience again, it has been found useful to extend even this idea a little, in particular to the notion of counting liberties in capturing races and so the table 3-3, 4-5, 5-8 etc is often talked about using nakade type language.

Still, go is not just for beginners and when the topic changes, so the terms can change or be extended. For example, a move at the 2-2 point inside a carpenter's square is, in one sense, 'a move inside' but experience tells us that the nature of this problem is rather different from the bulky five kind of problem, and so nakade is never used there. The favoured term is oki (placement).

Advanced players may be shown more difficult problems involving under-the-stones and other shapes where a 'bulky' clump of stones is captured and it is possible play back inside that area with a cut. That cut can be (and often is) referred to as a nakade, It is, however, assumed that players strong enough to appreciate these moves are strong enough to distinguish this usage from the main one.

Even more advanced players may be introduced to the Chinese classics such as Guanzi Pu where many of the problems are not life & death at all but endgame problems in which there is 'a move inside' that causes huge damage. In this case a Japanese writer might use nakade, but he also might flag up this usage as being unusual. Either way, he knows his main audience is very advanced players and so does not need to worry about confusion with the basic usage.

We know the Japanese experience works: they've got 9-dans coming out of their ears. We can usefully follow their basic analysis: identify the commonest themes for beginners. We also know people in general resist over-definition, strange words, too much newness at once. That is for the most part a motivation not to follow the Japanese terminology too closely, though in my view it is sensible to have an awareness of what the main usages are in Japanese (if following their basic analysis) simply so that the commonest themes can be most sharply delineated.

What I think also follows from all of this is that western writers have to avoid over-definition in writing, and allow and even sometimes pander to the reader's inclination to tolerate looseness and ambiguity (treat him as an intelligent grown-up, if you like). Of course, a writer can do his own research and split the go atom, but when it comes to presenting this to the general public he should eschew claims to have invented this or discovered that, and should write in language that benefits the reader rather than the writer (e.g. avoid locutions such as "this is the commonest case but there are 45 major exceptions"). There should be no trumpeting about structure. There should be structure, but opaque to the reader.

In the case of L&D there are several books I have seen that already do this admirably. The best I have seen for the most basic L&D is a Korean one (Sahyeol moreugo... ISBN 89-333-0354-5 03690) but there are several in Chinese and Japanese, and I would highly commend also the James Davies book. The point of all these books is that they prove it is possible to present the topic in an informative and entertaining way without revealing the deep analysis that preceded the book, and that in three of the languages concerned, the writers managed not even to mention the word nakade at all.

To attempt the other way risks the failure of Aaron Nimzowitch in chess. He wrote a vast number of books, articles and essays on chess theory (a new book has just collected many of the rare items), yet - with not too much exaggeration - all he is remembered for today, despite being quite a remarkable man - as he constantly reminded us, is the term prophylaxis, mockery of his term isolani, misquotations (the threat is stronger than the execution) and constant argument over how to spell his name.

In a nutshell, the debate should not be over nakade but over presentation.


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 Post subject: Re: Lake, Nakade, Eye, Eyespace and Related Terms
Post #68 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:25 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
Robert: your willingness to reconsider your use of nakade is a welcome sign, but I still think you are missing an important point.

I'm really just repeating tchan's point, but none of us here, even if we set ourselves up as a committee of wise men, gets to decide which words the go community prefers. Observation of technical terms in any field suggests that users (a) tolerate a degree of looseness and ambiguity, and (b) welcome a degree of looseness and ambiguity. We can posit good reasons why this may be so. One is that people learn at different paces, and allowing a term to be used in a loose way in the initial stages, with refinements to follow later, is useful pedagogically. Another is that discussions of the field at hand usually involve some measure of entertainment and fashion: both writers and readers want the freedom to use terms in new ways. This may be something as simple as to start using a noun as a verb (e.g. a scapegoat --> to scapegoat).

In addition, while observation also suggests that users are not averse to brand new terms, in this case two points have to be emphasised. One is that, again, it is the go community that gets to decide which new terms are accepted, not the inventor, and the other is that users generally resist more than a couple of new terms at a time. They seem to prefer to see which ones fill a genuine need and/or which ones are going to be fashionable.

Users also seem to resist (very strongly, I find) extensive definitions. Apart from the instant impression of being given complexity where simple entertainment or limited progress is often wanted, we see repeatedly that this quickly gets out of control. You define something as a move in an area, but what is a move, what is an area? What is meant by territory, shape, position, vital point, point, string, group? And all these issues apply in the most basic of basic ideas in L&D: nakade. Sledgehammers and nuts don't do justice to that kind of teaching.

We see all of this in operation at the moment in the UK in the coffee shop and coffee machine explosion. Different companies try to push their own words and so we are suddenly faced with varieties of coffee labelled as lungo, intenso, caffe crema (no milk), barista, cortado, flat white, and new uses of macchiato and Americano (with milk). The result is that you can go into one coffee shop and enjoy a lungo, and the next day go into a shop on the other side of the street and ask for a lungo only to be met by a blank stare. I can even imagine some people stay out of coffee shops because they are terrified of looking like idiots if they say "I want a white coffee" (which gets me many blank stares in the USA, incidentally).

In the case of go, there is the added complication of the influence of oriental languages. There are quite a few players who use (or misuse), say, Japanese terms just to sound swanky, but for the most part what is going on is simply that people recognise that Japanese go teachers/writers have long experience in spreading the game and we are trying to piggyback on that experience. Yet this is awkward for many reasons. Apart from the need to understand the base term, which may be rendered in many ways in English, thus disguising that fact that a technical term is even being used, there are nuances and grammatical usages that do not carry over easily into English.

To bring this specifically back to nakade, what we can say is that Japanese go educators have found it useful (and, more importantly, beginners have found it acceptable) to isolate a couple of areas to concentrate on in this context. One is to identify a small number of shapes (collections of contiguous empty points) that currently represent one eye and which have the potential to be split into two eyes, but which are such that a single play by the opponent at a vital point within that shape can prevent two eyes. For this move they have devised the term nakade, which is unequivocally described (Nihon Ki-in Glossary of Go Terms) as "basically a contraction of naka no te. A move at the vital point for making eyes inside an opponent's territory" (followed up with several examples to show the limits of the context). This is the main usage. In practice, however, it has been found useful to extend the term grammatically, and so elliptical forms such as gomoku nakade (bulky five) have been used, and the noun can be turned into a verb by saying nakade suru.

However, on the basis of experience again, it has been found useful to extend even this idea a little, in particular to the notion of counting liberties in capturing races and so the table 3-3, 4-5, 5-8 etc is often talked about using nakade type language.

Still, go is not just for beginners and when the topic changes, so the terms can change or be extended. For example, a move at the 2-2 point inside a carpenter's square is, in one sense, 'a move inside' but experience tells us that the nature of this problem is rather different from the bulky five kind of problem, and so nakade is never used there. The favoured term is oki (placement).

Advanced players may be shown more difficult problems involving under-the-stones and other shapes where a 'bulky' clump of stones is captured and it is possible play back inside that area with a cut. That cut can be (and often is) referred to as a nakade, It is, however, assumed that players strong enough to appreciate these moves are strong enough to distinguish this usage from the main one.

Even more advanced players may be introduced to the Chinese classics such as Guanzi Pu where many of the problems are not life & death at all but endgame problems in which there is 'a move inside' that causes huge damage. In this case a Japanese writer might use nakade, but he also might flag up this usage as being unusual. Either way, he knows his main audience is very advanced players and so does not need to worry about confusion with the basic usage.

We know the Japanese experience works: they've got 9-dans coming out of their ears. We can usefully follow their basic analysis: identify the commonest themes for beginners. We also know people in general resist over-definition, strange words, too much newness at once. That is for the most part a motivation not to follow the Japanese terminology too closely, though in my view it is sensible to have an awareness of what the main usages are in Japanese (if following their basic analysis) simply so that the commonest themes can be most sharply delineated.

What I think also follows from all of this is that western writers have to avoid over-definition in writing, and allow and even sometimes pander to the reader's inclination to tolerate looseness and ambiguity (treat him as an intelligent grown-up, if you like). Of course, a writer can do his own research and split the go atom, but when it comes to presenting this to the general public he should eschew claims to have invented this or discovered that, and should write in language that benefits the reader rather than the writer (e.g. avoid locutions such as "this is the commonest case but there are 45 major exceptions"). There should be no trumpeting about structure. There should be structure, but opaque to the reader.

In the case of L&D there are several books I have seen that already do this admirably. The best I have seen for the most basic L&D is a Korean one (Sahyeol moreugo... ISBN 89-333-0354-5 03690) but there are several in Chinese and Japanese, and I would highly commend also the James Davies book. The point of all these books is that they prove it is possible to present the topic in an informative and entertaining way without revealing the deep analysis that preceded the book, and that in three of the languages concerned, the writers managed not even to mention the word nakade at all.

To attempt the other way risks the failure of Aaron Nimzowitch in chess. He wrote a vast number of books, articles and essays on chess theory (a new book has just collected many of the rare items), yet - with not too much exaggeration - all he is remembered for today, despite being quite a remarkable man - as he constantly reminded us, is the term prophylaxis, mockery of his term isolani, misquotations (the threat is stronger than the execution) and constant argument over how to spell his name.

In a nutshell, the debate should not be over nakade but over presentation.


I'll avoid the go lexycon battle because I'm not qualified enough and instead comment on two items. A macchiato, as well as a cortado are pretty clear-cut terms, because they are foreign words very precise in their own languages. A macchiato is a slightly longer espresso (generally, in Italy it may be a normal one) with a drip of milk. A cortado (past participle of cut in Spanish) is similar, but since the quality of espresso here is lower, it is closer to just a small cup, half coffee (strong, not one of these American things) and half milk.

As for Nimzovich (whatever: each language has his own rules for Russian/Slavic names, at least I know Catalan does but I always forget) for me he is better remembered for his book "My System" which is always touted as a good treatise on theory. He also named an opening or defense, don't remember (my stints with chess were 15 years ago)

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 Post subject: Re: Lake, Nakade, Eye, Eyespace and Related Terms
Post #69 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:43 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
If Black starts on the 2-1 "vital point" instead of 6, White lives. ;)


But he can play the 2-2 "vital point" and kill.


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Post #70 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:43 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Uchi is a general term for a play in a number of games. But yes, a nakade is a kind of uchikomi. :)

Sorry,

It is NOT "everything" with "uchi" that has to do with "inside". Ashes on my head.

The inside-"uchi" I had in mind, was "内" / "中".



Oh, that uchi! :)

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Post #71 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:47 am 
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John Fairbairn wrote:
This may be something as simple as to start using a noun as a verb (e.g. a scapegoat --> to scapegoat).


Verbing nouns can weird English though :)


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Post #72 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:53 am 
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Ambiguity is good when it is necessary, because insight is still under-developed. Correctness is good when it is possible, because insight has already been found.

In LD, there is very little theory thus far, because it requires a lot of study and research to develop theory that is useful because it decreases the amount of pure reading significantly. I envision the nature of such theory, and it relies on the knowledge of techniques and the ability to distinguish, e.g., what is from what is not a nakade. If one makes mistakes on this basic level, one can judge LD wrongly and will profit less from more powerful theory. One must not be ambiguous about a group's status, but identify it correctly. This is one of the basic go skills. Therefore, one must also identify nakade correctly.

There is enough room for creativity and ambiguity where it can be afforded. E.g., in middle game strategy: sacrifice or save a group. In order to make such strategy, one needs to know that the group is 'unsettled'.


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Post #73 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:02 am 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
John Fairbairn wrote:
This may be something as simple as to start using a noun as a verb (e.g. a scapegoat --> to scapegoat).


Verbing nouns can weird English though :)


Over it get, you will.

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Post #74 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:28 am 
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Part of the value of the ambiguity of a term is that a writer can specify a meaning, even modifying an existing meaning for his or her purposes, for the context of the writing. For instance, when I write technically about evaluation, I can state that I am using sente and gote to refer to positions as well as plays, and that I am using only the technical definitions. I can say that when I talk about the value of a play, I mean how much it gains on average, instead of the common meaning.

I understand Robert's need for precision, and if he finds it convenient to choose one meaning of nakade and make it precise, within the context of his writing, then that could be quite useful, without appearing to dictate what it should mean in other contexts. :)

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Post #75 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:29 am 
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RobertJasiek wrote:
Ambiguity is good when it is necessary, because insight is still under-developed. Correctness is good when it is possible, because insight has already been found.


Ambiguous and correct are not opposites. The opposite would be "precise", or a related term, and of course then there is a continuum from very precise all the way to very ambiguous.

Correctness is independent of ambiguity or precision.


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Post #76 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:35 pm 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
Correctness is independent of ambiguity or precision.

Yes, indeed. And one (Robert included) must neither forget that there is a development while one gets smarter over time, nor that there is an environment.

The largest part of your school time you lived excellent with the fact that there were no square roots of negative numbers.
Was this state "incorrect" ?
Would it have helped you to know either that this restiction will fall in the future, or that this will happen in exactly five years, eleven months, and sixteen days ?

Certainly not !

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Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

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 Post subject: Re: Lake, Nakade, Eye, Eyespace and Related Terms
Post #77 Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:19 pm 
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