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| question about a clamp on second line http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10195 |
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| Author: | oca [ Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | question about a clamp on second line |
Hello, I went to this page on SL : Clamp and I saw this diagram : with this comment : Quote: As can be seen in the example, the [second line clamp] is a common [end-game tesuji]. It makes ''a'' and ''b'' [miai]. I wonder what happend for black if white choose 'b' for  what would black do after  ? tried  at a or b but can't find any good continuation for black...or is that something wrong in my sequence ? Any help welcome |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
a and then atari stone above to capture in ladder. If you don't have the ladder you can still fight and break white's shape. Usually it's good for black. Also 5 can make ko instead of connect if you don't like white keeping the points with this tesuji (black does get stronger on the outside in sente but it's a bit ugly): |
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| Author: | oca [ Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
Thanks Uberdude, I like the idea of the ladder. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
oca wrote: Hello, I went to this page on SL : Clamp and I saw this diagram : with this comment : Quote: As can be seen in the example, the [second line clamp] is a common [end-game tesuji]. It makes ''a'' and ''b'' [miai]. I wonder what happend for black if white choose 'b' for You need to be careful about examples on SL. Remember, it is written by amateurs. I checked the page history and found out that this example arose from a question by a kyu player who asked if  was a clamp. So it is.  But I would be very surprised if this diagram appeared in more than a handful of pro games, if any. Why? Because Black is too weak outside of the corner. This is a much more likely position for the clamp. First, Black is strong enough outside not to worry about the safety of the  stones, no matter how White answers the clamp. Second, Black has a stronger reply if White captures . Not that you can't learn something by playing around with such examples. But you are much better off studying examples from pro games or books. Then you can trust that the play in the example is actually a good idea. (Unless the point is that it is a mistake, OC.) There are such examples on the SL page. There are times when a player will make a second line clamp in the corner, even though he is weak outside. Here is an example.The clamp,  , is played as a probe to leave aji in the corner. (OC, it threatens to live there if Black does not reply.) It is a good exercise to consider what the aji is if  descends instead of connecting.
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| Author: | oca [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
Bill, thanks for the detailed response. Bill Spight wrote: ... You need to be careful about examples on SL ... Not that you can't learn something by playing around with such examples. ... Ok thanks, good to know... Bill Spight wrote: You are much better off studying examples from pro games or books I do that too... I'm currently reading "So you want to play go, level 2" for 19 to 10 kyu and also "Fundamental Principles of Go, written by Yilun Yang" which is a bit harder for me... I feel that I understand what the book says, but when I do the exercices, I full wrong...  Bill Spight wrote: It is a good exercise to consider what the aji is if descends instead of connecting. I was first thinking of this... but  seems to be wrongI suppose black would more do that , which leads to connect and die for white...so maybe more something like that... it seems that "a" is good neither for black nor for white... |
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
@oca: When Bill says 'descend' he means this: In go, when talking directions, down is "towards the nearest edge" and up is "towards the center", hence descend here means "stretch towards the nearest (left) edge". |
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| Author: | oca [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
oh.. ok... thanks, I will rotate my brain by 90° and try again then... |
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| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi oca, In addition to what Herman said, the you made is a hane (on  ),and a tiger's mouth, but not a descend. A descend is a solid extension toward and close to an edge.
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| Author: | Charlie [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
Situations like these are made for database searches which can show you whole board positions in which a pro might play such a clamp and what might happen, afterwards. Using this: https://badukmovies.com/pro_games/pattern_search ... shows the move played here by Xiao Zhenghao, 6p... https://badukmovies.com/pro_games/43703 ... an?move=85 ... and here https://badukmovies.com/pro_games/3079- ... hi?move=69 ... and in some other pro. games. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
Charlie wrote: Situations like these are made for database searches which can show you whole board positions in which a pro might play such a clamp and what might happen, afterwards. Using this: https://badukmovies.com/pro_games/pattern_search ... shows the move played here by Xiao Zhenghao, 6p... https://badukmovies.com/pro_games/43703 ... an?move=85 ... and here https://badukmovies.com/pro_games/3079- ... hi?move=69 ... and in some other pro. games. Thanks. The second game is not really an example that fits the diagram on SL, because it has a Black stone on the 6-7 point.
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| Author: | Charlie [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
Bill Spight wrote: The second game is not really an example that fits the diagram on SL, because it has a Black stone on the 6-7 point. Indeed. I was posting at work and my aim was to punt the idea of using a database search to find pro games in which a position arises. Those games were examples picked in a hurry. 
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
Charlie wrote: Bill Spight wrote: The second game is not really an example that fits the diagram on SL, because it has a Black stone on the 6-7 point. Indeed. I was posting at work and my aim was to punt the idea of using a database search to find pro games in which a position arises. Those games were examples picked in a hurry. Yes. Thanks, again.
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
HermanHiddema wrote: @oca: When Bill says 'descend' he means this: In go, when talking directions, down is "towards the nearest edge" and up is "towards the center", hence descend here means "stretch towards the nearest (left) edge". Thanks, Herman. First exercise. What happens if White cuts? |
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| Author: | oca [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
@Charlie : thanks for the links, I didn't know that site. @EdLee and Herman, thanks for your explanations, proper name is something important to me. I really like the proverb "If it has a name, know it" So I'm happy to add "descend" to my go vocabulary. @Bill, thanks for the exercice, I don't find any good continuation for white after  that setup a ladder...tryied then at and that seems no good for white...so I would not play ... correct ?
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
oca wrote: @Charlie : thanks for the links, I didn't know that site. @EdLee and Herman, thanks for your explanations, proper name is something important to me. I really like the proverb "If it has a name, know it" So I'm happy to add "descend" to my go vocabulary. @Bill, thanks for the exercice, I don't find any good continuation for white after that setup a ladder...tryied then at and that seems no good for white...so I would not play ... correct ?Well done! But the cut is a threat. What play or plays threaten the cut and also threaten something else? Play around with that.
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| Author: | oca [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
Maybe in a ko fight where black plays  somewhere else to win the ko and then I can play  to concretise the  threat |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
oca wrote: Maybe in a ko fight where black plays somewhere else to win the ko and then I can play to concretise the threatOK. First question: What other ways are there of capturing the stones besides ?Second question: What are local threats to make the cut that also threaten something else? (Really a repeat question, but answer the first question first. )
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| Author: | Charlie [ Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
oca wrote: ... I didn't know that site. BadukMovies is a great site. Watch some of their free videos and, when you get to SDK (single-digit-kyu), subscribe. I think I gained five stones (9 kyu to 4 kyu) from their videos ... just keep your finger near the pause button. It often helps to think about a position on your own before letting the video explain the proper move. (end of unsolicited plug) |
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| Author: | oca [ Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
Bill Spight wrote: First question: What other ways are there of capturing the stones besides ?This one seems to be better then my first try at "a" Bill Spight wrote: Second question: What are local threats to make the cut that also threaten something else? (Really a repeat question, but answer the first question first. )tryied that but  is a little annoying... but  is still a threat I suppose.or even that : [edit] but that goes a bit too far I think...[/edit] |
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| Author: | HermanHiddema [ Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: question about a clamp on second line |
@oca: You're interpreting the order wrong. Bill is asking for threats before , not after.Bill is asking "What are local threats to make the cut" Here "the cut" is in your diagram. So he is asking you: Are there moves that threaten to make the cut possible, since you've already shown that playing it immediately fails (in post #14 of this thread).The second part of his question: "that also threaten something else?" then means: Of those moves that would make the cut at possible, are there any that also contain a secondary threat, so that if black defends against the threat of the cut, white can do something nice elsewhere?
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