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Proper corner play? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=10668 |
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Author: | Aidoneus [ Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | Proper corner play? |
I've tried finding this cut by White at eidogo.com and ps.waltheri.net to no avail. I've experimented with extending, descending, and playing atari with rather disappointing results considering that it seems like it must be a very bad move to not appear at all in pro games or Kogo's dictionary. I hope that someone will be willing to give some variations or at least discuss what may be wrong with White's cut! Thank you in advance. |
Author: | Solomon [ Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:47 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Proper corner play? |
Author: | DrStraw [ Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Proper corner play? |
W has a dead shape. If W now plays 'a' then B has to play in the corner to kill and so W has aji on the outside. But this early in the game it is hard to see how to use it. This means W's cut is too aggressive at this stage. With other stones on the board it may be possible to consider it. |
Author: | Aidoneus [ Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:07 pm ] | ||
Post subject: | Re: Proper corner play? | ||
Yeah, I guess that context is everything. I tried the descent earlier today. I thought that White was dead till ![]() ![]() This was my first 19 x 19 game in several days. I've been squeezing in a few 9 x 9 igowin games between finishing up spruce-up work around the house before going back to teaching. I think that I'll buy Attack & Defense with my first check. ![]()
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Author: | Shawn Ligocki [ Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Proper corner play? |
Hi Aidoneus, I think your descent was good, but some of the follow-up plays were the real problem. Note that in the normal Joseki, White gets life in sente so even if you kill in gote that could be a big improvement! But notice that you actually try to take sente by tenukiing at ![]() But the really glaring problems are ![]() ![]() Instead of ![]() As I mentioned above, this would be easier to read if you had not tenukied back at ![]() ![]() |
Author: | Aidoneus [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:14 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Proper corner play? |
Shawn Ligocki wrote: Hi Aidoneus, I think your descent was good, but some of the follow-up plays were the real problem. Note that in the normal Joseki, White gets life in sente so even if you kill in gote that could be a big improvement! But notice that you actually try to take sente by tenukiing at ![]() But the really glaring problems are ![]() ![]() Instead of ![]() As I mentioned above, this would be easier to read if you had not tenukied back at ![]() ![]() Hi Shawn, Yeah, I looked first at ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Besides creating weak groups, the only thing I really know how to do is play gote moves. ![]() ![]() Thank you for your comments! |
Author: | EdLee [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:00 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Hi Aidoneus, Aidoneus wrote: I'm desperately trying to sense when I can safely tenuki instead of following all the time. This is non-trivial.![]() It's an on-going quest. It requires knowledge and experience in all aspects of Go: life-and-death, vital points, direction, urgent v. big, shapes, tesujis, ko, sente & gote, liberties, counting, assessment of the situation, attack & defense, fighting skills, reading in general, end game, etc. That's why it's so difficult! And it's related to your weak groups management, too. Enjoy. ![]() |
Author: | Uberdude [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:45 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Proper corner play? |
A few years ago there was an 8d on KGS called takemeba who liked to play the side hoshi points and tengen for his first moves and let his opponent play in all 4 corners. He would then invade their 4-4 at 3-3 and if the opponent hane'd after block and crawl he would cut. The support of the two neighbouring side hoshis means you can't kill the corner, and having lived there his opponent was cut and would invariably suffer in the fighting that followed. Probably in such a situation hane was overplay and should just be extend. |
Author: | Aidoneus [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:20 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Proper corner play? |
Hi Ed, Uberdude, et al.: I was too wenrou, so now I try too hard for xianshou. With a little help from my friends, I may get by or at least not drive into a ditch. ![]() Thanks, Bill |
Author: | skydyr [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:29 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Proper corner play? |
Unless I'm misreading, I'm pretty sure black can still win the capturing race at ![]() |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:50 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Proper corner play? |
Aidoneus wrote: I'm desperately trying to sense when I can safely tenuki instead of following all the time. ![]() When you are not sure whether to tenuki or not, tenuki. If you are wrong, you will probably find out in the resulting fight, but if you take gote when you should not, no bell rings. |
Author: | Shawn Ligocki [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:01 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Proper corner play? |
Aidoneus wrote: Hi Shawn, Yeah, I looked first at ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Oops, you're right. That doesn't quite work for black in the way I expected. Nice reading! Quote: Besides creating weak groups, the only thing I really know how to do is play gote moves. ![]() ![]() Yes, this is a great thing to try in your games! And a slow road of learning for all of us. But now that you've had a chance to review your own game, here's the question: do you think you should have tenukied? Or kept playing locally? The fact that you would not be able to tenuki the normal joseki tells you that killing in gote is probably still an improvement. This is a useful trick I am trying to use more in my own games. To compare to the line if play you expected. If the new line is better, you have successfully punished your opponent for a misplay. |
Author: | Aidoneus [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:29 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Proper corner play? |
skydyr wrote: Unless I'm misreading, I'm pretty sure black can still win the capturing race at ![]() Hi skydyr, I spent about 3.5 minutes on ![]() ![]() @Shawn: So, for a player of my limited skill, I probably should have killed White before leaving the area earlier. (I still have trouble sometimes distinguishing between when a group is mostly dead and all dead. Which leads me at times to waste moves when groups seem slightly alive to me. An opportunity to call out to The Princess Bride fans!) |
Author: | DrStraw [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:27 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Proper corner play? |
Bill Spight wrote: Aidoneus wrote: I'm desperately trying to sense when I can safely tenuki instead of following all the time. ![]() When you are not sure whether to tenuki or not, tenuki. If you are wrong, you will probably find out in the resulting fight, but if you take gote when you should not, no bell rings. I would add to this that even if it is dangerous to tenuki then by doing so there is a good chance the opponent will follow you where you move anyway and you can come back to it later. The habit is low kyu players is that they always think their opponents last move is sente. |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Proper corner play? |
A few comments. ![]() Edit: Added a couple of variations. |
Author: | Aidoneus [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:15 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Proper corner play? |
Hi Bill, Thank you for looking at another one of my games! A few comments on your comments: On ![]() ![]() On ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Concerning the variations around ![]() As for your other comments, I need to be more cognizant of disconnecting my opponent's stones, keeping my own stones connected, and to stop making my own stones heavy. Maybe if I make a sleep tape to indoctrinate myself... ![]() Thanks, Bill |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Proper corner play? |
Aidoneus wrote: On ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() There is no need to save the atari stone. It can be treated lightly. Generally when a stone has done its work, it can be discarded. Quote: Concerning the variations around ![]() So it seems. ![]() Quote: As for your other comments, I need to be more cognizant of disconnecting my opponent's stones, keeping my own stones connected, and to stop making my own stones heavy. Maybe if I make a sleep tape to indoctrinate myself... ![]() Let your mantra be, "Divide and conquer, divide and conquer, . . ." ![]() |
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