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Orthodox fuseki question
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1074		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  fwiffo [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Orthodox fuseki question
This is a common sequence in pro games:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . 0 . . . |
$$ . . . 6 1 . . |
$$ . . 8 7 9 . . |
$$ . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . 2 X O O . . |
$$ . . 1 X O . . |
$$ . . 3 b O . . |
$$ . . . a . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]

White gets eyes and black gets sente. Black will make an extension on the top side, and may exchange a for b first.

But I see this a lot in my games when I play this opening:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 9 2 . . |
$$ . . . 8 7 . . |
$$ . . . 6 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]

There must be a good reason why pros don't play this way, but it seems like I end up with an unfavorable result. How should this be handled?
Author:  topazg [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orthodox fuseki question
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 9 2 0 . |
$$ . . . 8 7 . . |
$$ . . . 6 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]


Like this ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . O X X . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . 6 X O . . |
$$ . . 4 3 5 . . |
$$ . 8 7 X O . . |
$$ . . 9 . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]
Author:  fwiffo [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orthodox fuseki question
I guess I find that result a bit unsatisfying too. Compared to the pro sequence, black has less attractive shape and has cutting stones to deal with. But white doesn't seem worse off. Is it just that the corner is less open to invasion now?
Author:  Shaddy [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orthodox fuseki question
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O B . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]

How about this? w can't capture the circled stone now, and black's got a decent wall. Not to mention w's group has pretty bad shape now.
Author:  fwiffo [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orthodox fuseki question
That's actually pretty close to what I've been getting the past two times I've seen this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . O X . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . 5 3 4 . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . 2 O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]

I guess I might be looking for some kind of "super severe move of great justice" which is not reasonable here.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orthodox fuseki question
Shaddy wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O B . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]

How about this? w can't capture the circled stone now, and black's got a decent wall. Not to mention w's group has pretty bad shape now.

I considered that myself, but this doesn't feel too attractive:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . 7 . . |
$$ . . . . 5 6 . |
$$ . . . . 1 4 . |
$$ . . . O X 2 . |
$$ . . . X O 3 . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . X X O . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]
Author:  Shaddy [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orthodox fuseki question
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . O B . . |
$$ . . . X O 6 . |
$$ . . . X O 5 8 |
$$ . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . . . X O 7 . |
$$ . . . . O 9 . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 5 O . . |
$$ . . 4 O B . . |
$$ . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . X O X O |
$$ 6 . . X X O . |
$$ . . . X O X . |
$$ . . 3 1 O X . |
$$ . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]

Fight!
Author:  Magicwand [ Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orthodox fuseki question
Shaddy wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . O B . . |
$$ . . . X O 6 . |
$$ . . . X O 5 8 |
$$ . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ . . . X O 7 . |
$$ . . . . O 9 . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 5 O . . |
$$ . . 4 O B . . |
$$ . . . X O O . |
$$ . . . X O X O |
$$ 6 . . X X O . |
$$ . . . X O X . |
$$ . . 3 1 O X . |
$$ . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]

Fight!


way you cut was wrong. you should have cut at 7 first. cut at 5 is wrong.
Author:  fwiffo [ Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Orthodox fuseki question
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . 3 X . . |
$$ . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . 8 6 X O . . |
$$ . . 7 5 O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]

I got a chance to ask Battousai today, and he suggests this response by black in response to :w1:, which is sorta obvious in retrospect. :b6: is the move I was looking for to keep sente (if black turns, white gets sealed-in in sente) and expose why pros don't play :w1:.
Author:  Jonas [ Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Orthodox fuseki question
I think in most pro games black will first kakari in the upper left corner to form the moyo. If he kakaris after the sequence you have prepared White will certainly not answer with the calm keima!
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